87. Breaking the Binary (with Travis McMaster)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Travis McMaster

You're not alone on the fact of going through this journey and the journey of figuring out self, and so I want to just remind listeners, or anyone that might be struggling with their gender identity that you know you're not alone.

Your life is definitely worth it. The struggle can be very real for some people, so just stay strong, you know, and know that, you know it's there are resources out there, there are people out there that care.

Episode Introduction (0:47)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I'm a non-jaded gay because I've been doing some little house fixer-uppers around the house that just make me feel really capable of more than I thought I was.

I mean, nothing major, but for the past few weeks, we've gotten a lot of rain in Philly, and I was getting some puddles in my basement, which is not great.

So, I ended up getting some caulk, and I caulked around the outside of my house, down the stairs. Not perfect, definitely a little messier than intended.

But then the other thing I did was, you know, a while back over the holidays, I think I mentioned this, I kind of gave my kitchen a little uplift. I painted the counters to make them look like marble counters.

And then my friend actually helped me, and by helped me, I mean, he did it himself.

Put up some like adhesive tiles to the backsplash, because the older backsplash was ugly, but one of the parts of the adhesive backsplash kept coming off in one spot, and I kept reapplying it, but it was coming off, so I just ended up getting a little spackle and spackled that onto the wall.

So, nothing major, but like whenever I do these little home fixes, I just feel very proud of myself and like a property brother, which actually my friend's mom told me I look like a property brother, which, hey, I will take that compliment any day.

I have a huge crush on Jonathan, so give me a call. But enough about my DIY crushes.

Gender Identity (2:04)

Rob Loveless

Today we have a very special episode and a very special guest joining us. First guest of 2024 coming on the podcast today to discuss all things non-binary.

So really important episode. Really excited to have this interview, but before we do you know the drill. Let's pull the tarot.

Tarot (2:24)

Rob Loveless

So, we pulled a Major Arcana card for this episode, and that is The Hermit in reverse. So as a reminder, Major Arcana cards signal a major milestone in our journey.

And The Hermit is number nine in the Major Arcana and in numerology, nine is signifying that we're almost about to complete a cycle, but we're not quite there yet.

And nine also represents being alone or solitude. Now, normally, The Hermit is encouraging us to spend time with ourselves and connect to our inner truth, but when we pull this card in reverse, it's telling us that we might be afraid to be alone and that we're refusing to look within ourselves.

Or on the flip side, we may have been in isolation for too long, and need to reach out to our support system. So really, it can kind of go either way, depending on the circumstance you're in.

And regardless of the circumstance, we definitely need to reflect and listen to ourselves to see what we need, whether it's that we need to address the reasons why we're afraid to be alone and kind of listen to our inner voice to really touch base with maybe some of those insecurities that are uncomfortable to confront, but necessary so we can move forward.

Or on the flip side, that we need to reach out to our support system, our network, our chosen friends and family, so that way we can re-emerge into society.

Never doubt the power of socialization and laughing with friends, even though that sometimes makes us step outside our comfort zone. So definitely something to think about as we go through this episode.

Guest Introduction (3:41)

Rob Loveless

But with that being said, let's bring on our guest. They are a public speaker, board member of Alder Health Services, and host of Caffeinated N' Queer.

Basically, they are a McMaster of all. Please welcome Travis McMaster. Hi, Travis.

Travis McMaster

Hey, Rob. How's it going?

Rob Loveless

Good, thanks. How are you?

Travis McMaster

I'm doing dandy. It's a great day. We got fresh cup of coffee ready to go.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Sounds like a good start to Saturday morning.

Travis McMaster

Absolutely.

Rob Loveless

To kick it off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you identify, your pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Travis McMaster

Absolutely, yeah. So, my pronouns are they/them. I identify as a non-binary person. I am here in Pennsylvania.

I live in Franklin County and but originally born and raised in the Hanover, Pennsylvania area. So, if you're familiar with like, Utz potato chips or Snyders Pretzels, they were basically in my backyard.

And for many years, and kind of like slowly, just incrementally, moved one county over at a time, as my husband and I, where we live now. We've been here since 2022 so yeah, that's a little bit about myself.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. And before we get into the episode, I like to ask all my guests, today, are you an honorary jaded or non-jaded gay?

Travis McMaster

You know, I think I want to go with non-jaded. I've really been trying to you know, I mean over the years, like lead a more, like optimistic, positive, like mindset and lifestyle.

So, I'm gonna go with non, non-jaded today.

Rob Loveless

I'm always glad to hear that. So, as you talked about at the beginning, you identify as non-binary.

Can you walk us through your self-discovery of your non-binary identity and your visibility importance awakening?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, so I'm actually gonna, I guess, flip the order, because the visibility awakening kind of hit me like a ton of bricks in 2017. So I was, I was rolling through the Taco Bell drive-thru, as one does, right?

And so, I went in for my order, and I go to pay, and the young person who took my money was just like, oh, it's so cool to see somebody that looks like you in this area. And yes, it was in Hanover, right? So, it's a smaller town for those who might not be familiar.

And obviously, we are in a audio medium, so I guess just to kind of like, tee it up, I have a face full of metals. Have like, my lips pierced and my septum and my nose, and I have a lot of tattoos, so I'm very visually stimulating, to say the least.

But this young person was just like, just very warm and just so excited about it. I guess, seeing somebody that looks the way that I do, and I couldn't stop thinking about it. I got home, and it was just like, holy smokes.

Like, you know, I did my time in fast food in Hanover, and realized at that point, like, I could be the visibility I never had.

Like, I though we've moved incrementally through smaller towns, like there was no, like, push-based because of, like, our careers, my husband and I to really, kind of, like, move away to a bigger city or metropolitan area.

So that's when I was like, Wait, like, again, I could, I could be that inspiration, you know.

And I've always kind of, I mean, since 2007 have been living out, but it was in that moment where I'm like, I could truly make a difference, you know, and be the thing that I just I never had, because I fully relate to being a young person who's like, I need to get out of here.

Like there's nothing here for me. There's no community. And I believe in some, in so many cases, like, that's not true, like there is community, just kind of find it.

So, when it comes to then, like, my identity, you know, I came out in when was that? 2007, I'd returned to school. So, I was 21 I went back to the Art Institute of York, Pennsylvania, rest in peace, because that school's not around anymore. But, you know, at that point, was like, I need to get myself figured out.

And was like, you know, I'm gay, like, period, you know. And I kind of went about my my merry way and but there was always, like, certain things that I was kind of drawn to, like, whether aesthetics or just thoughts and not really like, I guess, feeling aligned to it.

For example, if someone would be like, you know, you're like, a great man or whatever, or like, I'm really proud of like the man you like turned into, said by my parents, I I really like, I would just cringe inside. There's something about like that classification was like that just doesn't work for me.

But on the flip side, you know, doing certain things that I guess would be more feminine, whether it's painting your nails or having a purse, which, by the way, is very practical.

You know, I hear like, are you trying to be a girl? Are you trying to be a woman? And it's like, no, I'm not. Like, I don't really at both ends of the spectrum, right? Like, I just never really related to it.

But I for so long, I guess, didn't really have the language, you know, it was just kind of, I don't wanna say, checked out of the community, but wasn't, you know, I was like, I'm out, I'm this, it's LGBT specifically at that timeframe, right?

And I was fine, I guess, kind of complacent. But then it was like through so my band, Dead Bird Pie, we're not active currently, but from like 2017 to 2019 we really started, like we played a lot of gigs and whatnot.

And I kind of, I guess, not too dissimilar from how you hear some people say, like, how they use drag to discover their identity. I, in some ways, used, like, my stage persona loosely, to kind of work through that where you're, like, pulling different outfits for like, to wear on stage.

And I was dabbling in different parts of the department store, right? I since then, like, my nails have been painted every day for the most part, or, like, I more recently, you know, have them, it's nice little easier sets, but, you know, like, really start blending those gender-specific things.

But I did it kind of under the guise of rock and roll, right? Because I had my rock and roll band, but then it was, I think, fast forward to like, 2018, 19, I followed Queerty, the blog, you know, of course, they're covering people like Alok Vaid-Menon, who's a non-binary person.

So, like starting to see people hear the language, it started to kind of like be unboxed, if you will, for lack of better phrasing.

And then around that time, I think, like Sam Smith, started identifying as non-binary, and I just admittedly, like, I didn't get it at first, but I was like, I just so curious about it. I was like, I needed to learn more.

So, I just like, not going to belabor at this point. Then through it was in 2021 I ended up, I got a new job. You know, I had opportunity to advance my career, so I took it. And for like this employer, there was just an awareness of inclusion, right?

And there was a lot of different, different ERGs related to different communities, right? Like the Black community, Asian community, the LGBTQ+ community, you know, they have 100% HRC rating, which for those, I guess I'm familiar to the Human Rights Campaign, their Work Equality Index score, so it just kind of says that they've do a lot for the people as it relates to being supportive and having different things and being equitable towards people.

But it was in that space where I'm, like, I mean, I work from home as well, but it was nice to be able to have this space where I could, like, work through my identity and know that there wouldn't be ramifications or anything like that. I could, like, try things, figure things out.

And, you know, I picked up Alok's book Beyond the Gender Binary, you know, and that was really insightful and educational for me. And also listened to Samantha, Samantha Allen's. It was an audible audiobook, M to (WT)F: 26 of the Funniest Moments from my Transgender Journey.

And that was so that was also kind of eye-opening for me, because, again, I think it helps solidify like I am not on either ends of the spectrum or of the of the of the binary, right?

I very much feel like I just float in the middle, and whether it's feminine masculine, like, Sign me up. You know what I mean.

So, then it was a few months after that where I was like, you know, I I identify as a non-binary person, period. And it was just it felt so good to say, yeah. So, it's kind of like my evolution of of my identity.

Rob Loveless

One thing that really stood out to me from that was, I know you said, you know, in 2007 you didn't necessarily have the language of non-binary. They/them. And I think you know, for me personally, in 2007 I was a closeted high school freshman.

But even back then, I feel just general high-level gay representation was still very stereotypical. You know, what you saw in the media, what you heard talked about, and really, I mean, again, closeted, so I wasn't really looking for it necessarily, but I don't remember really ever hearing too much language, like you said, around non-binary gender fluid, you know, using they/them pronouns.

I mean, I'm sure non-binary people have always existed, but it seems like more recently, our language has become more inclusive, and there has been more visibility to really emphasize that non-binary people are part of the LGBTQ+ community. It's not just white, cisgender gay men.

Travis McMaster

Yeah, I mean 27 or 2007 I mean, it was so different than, you know, thinking back to where, you know, I guess, from a visibility standpoint, I'm just so thankful for the one academic director that was there at the time, you know, shout out to Will.

He he was out, and it was just this great, real example. It like made it tangible for me, you know, because of the fact that, like, it wasn't somebody in media or on a TV screen.

It was somebody I actually knew that who was successful. Yeah, I think from a language standpoint, we just, I'm sure it was always there, but like, we said, like people just, it wasn't being used, it wasn't being talked about.

And thankfully that, I would say that's where there has been some positives in the technology changes, allowing people to create their own platforms and be more of a voice for the greater good.

Rob Loveless

So, I believe you said it was around 2017 that you began using they/them pronouns. What kind of reception did you get from friends and family?

Travis McMaster

So actually, my pronouns, that actually was a journey in and of itself. So, 2017 was really what I like, kind of came into the visibility, right?

And the importance of being a an out, visible member of the LGBTQ+ community. When I came out, then in September 2021 from a pronoun standpoint, I was, I was just like he, she, they's fine, whatever. I very much. It was almost like this rebirth moment.

Like, it's not too dissimilar from, like, coming out as gay where, like, there was this period of time where just I had to feel comfortable with, like, what does that mean? And I just was kind of taking it one day at a time, you know.

And like, if I had to, like, make a list of that, pronouns were kind of like, down a little bit because I was like, I'll worry about what people call me or how they refer to me once I feel like, more confident like who I am, what does this look like?

You know, exploring all those things. And so, a few months had gone by where I'm like, I think I need to like, figure this out, and was really drawn to more gender-neutral pronouns.

So, there was a period where, like, ze/zis/zer. I was using those because I thought, like they're gender neutral and not, obviously they is as well. But at that time, it, it just, it just didn't resonate with me.

And I don't know if it was more of a my punk rock spirit, like I need something that's more, I don't know, more gender neutral, as dumb as that sounds. So I was, I was kind of working with the and I think with like ze and zis there was like, this nice blending of like, specifically ze, obviously it rhymes with he.

So, there's like, that bit of a like masculine energy to it, where the the sizzle of the z, you know, it's not too dissimilar from like the SH or the S sound of a she. So that was kind of like my thought process behind it.

Fast Forward then to last year, actually, I was out of town for work, and a co-worker of mine. It was new. This project team actually referred to me using they and that was the first time, and it was, it was not, in a way to be malicious or anything like that.

You know, it was just like, that's how she said it, and like, I just, I heard it and like, I latched on to it so hard where that's when I was like, I think, like, it just felt right, right in terms of like, hearing that, hearing myself being referred to as they and them, etc.

And I'm like, yeah, like this, this is, this feels right. It doesn't feel forced the way I think I was trying to force other pronouns because I was just working through my identity. So, shout out to Erica. Thank you so much for inadvertently helping, helping with that awakening.

So, you know, telling friends and family it's been a journey, you know, talking to like my husband about it, you know, like my dad has been a journey, especially for for him, because, you know, he, he's kind of always he's known me for so long.

We've been together since 2007 so he's like, known me for so long, up until 2021 as like, as a man. And he/him. And you know, this gender journey, he's been he, he's been there. He's been he's been rolling with it.

He's been riding the wave, you know, and he's been receptive to the feedback around working through it. And, you know, I, too, have my hope is that, you know, I will offer the grace, because I know there's no malicious intent, right?

It's about rebuilding that muscle memory, and I as well, have to do the same thing, like, when I meet somebody, and, like, get acclimated, because there's still a level of like, having it ingrained that it's like, he, he she and so until the individual gets like enough exposure right to like work, work that through that muscle memory to make they so more regular to their brain, it just takes some energy.

But I would say like the response has been like ebb and flow in terms of some people, they get it immediately. It clicks. Other people, they don't get it. It takes some explaining. So, we just kind of take it one person at a time, one step at a time.

Relationships & Gender Identity (19:12)

Rob Loveless

You know, with that being said, would you mind going into a little bit more detail about in your relationship with your husband when you first begin identifying more non-binary and using they/them pronouns, how you brought that up in your, you know, with your husband, in your relationship, and how you, you know, how you started navigating that?

Maybe some challenges that came up, some, you know, resolution? Maybe advice you'd offer for people who are also, you know, in a relationship but wanting to come out with their non-binary identity?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, so, so I have a tendency to wear my emotions on my sleeve. So, when it, when I have something like I really need to talk about, I struggle to keep that close to the chest.

And so, I'm ready to talk about it. So, like when coming up to my husband as non-binary, we were actually on our way home from running errands and, and he was and, like, I can remember, like, I had it, like, burned in my brain, like being in the in the SUV that we had at the time, and, like, driving.

And what was it? What did you want to talk to me about? Or, like, did you want to talk to me about something? And I just, I froze, and I was like, Oh, I'm not. I wasn't ready for this conversation right now. And I was like, well, obviously you can't thaw a chicken and not cook it, right?

That's wasteful. So, I wasn't gonna not have the conversation. So, I was this is, this is who I am. This is how I now like this how identify, you know, and this is kind of the journey I've been going on, just to kind of figure all that out.

And Jer, my husband's name is Jeremy, I'm just lazy, so I call him Jer. He was just like, Okay. And that was kind of it like that in and of a nutshell, it was very much like that doesn't that doesn't really change who you are, like it.

It changes, obviously, who you like, are as in how you identify, but like, ultimately, you're still that same person. So that, I mean, that was a relief. Because honestly, like, I've had, I had the fear I'm like, well, no, I'm does that no longer make me the person that Jer married or signed up for?

Like, would he have that thought, you know, is it, like, who knows? You know, I had no idea how he's going to take it, so it's just a matter of ripping off that band-aid. Um, so, I mean, and he's been very supportive, you know?

And I think it's been, it's just been an educational journey as well, because he comes from that same camp of people at a certain time, like they're just the language wasn't there, right?

And so, he's, he's kind of crash coursing, if you will, for lack of a better phrasing on like, trying to stay up to date and just understand all the things.

Some of the challenges, I think, or the, I think the physical part of it in terms of, like, aesthetic, right? And starting to wanting to explore how I dress, different garments, and getting, kind of you said for a while prior to that, I think I had already been using a purse, again, super practical.

Everyone should get into it. Then my nails are painted and whatnot. And so a challenge for me, and I guess it's gonna get real personal, real deep, real quick, was the insecurity of, like still having that attraction between each other, right, where, at one point we we kind of had to have that difficult conversation where, you know, I kind of brought it up my insecurities, and, you know, it's kind of brought to my attention that that that was all in my head, basically.

So, I guess that lesson learned is like though difficult conversations are very hard to have, they are definitely worth having. In terms of pronouns, to talk about pronouns there.

There was a period of time where I would I was letting it skate with anybody, with everybody, because I just, I'm not really a confrontational person, right? Lover, not a fighter. Just kind of want to roll. I want to be cool with everybody.

But then it got to a point where I'm like, I don't like hearing myself be referred to in these in these different ways, like this is how I am. I am. I need to kind of put my foot down with that.

So it was specifically with Jer, you know, it was about finding that way that we could communicate where, you know, I wasn't getting frustrated because I knew there was no malicious intent, but making sure that he knew I was coming from a place of support, you know, and not, it wasn't an attack, you know. It wasn't like, oh, you screwed up my my pronouns, like, grrr.

It was like, you know, I hear that. You just remember, it's, it's they, it's them, whatever. What really, I think, started to help though, is when we did kind of come to terms of like, like, how can I be a better assistant?

So, if I heard it, just kind of lean in and just do the reminder. But then last summer, I had the opportunity to participate on a call with the Trevor Project had hosted and the person, and it was around identity, etc, and the person that led that call, shared a very fantastic exercise, which I'm going to share here to the how to learn someone's pronouns because, and I've applied it for myself too.

But the idea is that for anyone you're struggling to learn those pronouns, you block in your calendar five minutes every day at the same time.

So, you know you can do it for at least 21 days because it takes 21 days to build the habit. But then you say two to three sentences about this person using essentially all the pronouns you're trying to wrangle and better understand.

And so, in doing that, you know you're obviously making yourself feel good because you're talking about someone that you know, you hopefully, you know, have appreciation for admiration, etc.

So, you're kind of putting out that positive energy, but then you're also working on building that muscle memory to, you know, get used to that person's preferred method of being identified.

So, like, for example, you know, I would say, like, if I had a non-binary friend named Max, I might say Max is a fantastic drummer. They have amazing stick tricks. I always want them to be the drummer in my band, yeah. So that's like, again, a small little example, and it takes like, 30 seconds, right?

So, you do it every day. I've never asked Jer if he's implemented that, but, um, he's, he's gotten so good, like, with it. And, you know, does he sometimes slip?

He does, but it's so even a good friend of ours actually commented it when we had dinner the other week. He's so good about catching it. I mean, it's like, if it happens, it happens once, and then, like, he's back on it.

So, it's, it's cool to see the growth, and it's cool to see, I guess it's just cool to have that support. So yeah, in terms of tips, have this difficult conversations, you know, I'd like to believe that, you know, it is.

It's about hearts, not parts, right? So, like, that's not to say everything, like, things could go left, of course, but you got to have these conversations.

You've got to be able to give the person grace, you know, and be able to differentiate maliciousness versus genuine hiccups. And then, yeah, do that, do that daily exercise. So put it in your calendars every day, 21 days at least.

The Importance of Pronouns (26:57)

Rob Loveless

Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a really good idea to implement. And going off of that, you know, for those people out there who are resistant to using inclusive pronouns, and say, oh, you know, why? Why does it matter what you say? Why do pronouns matter so much?

Travis McMaster

Pronouns matter so much just because it's another form of respect and just being like respectful and realizing like you're talking to a person.

I mean, I guess in the simplest forms, it really does come down to just the respect factor, you know, and believing people when they say like this, how who they identify, or how they identify as or who they are, believing them, you know.

I I think of all the different times where, you know, just in jest, right, just for fun, you know, I would, for certain people, be like, hey girl, and it's like, not even like, it was just, like, a fun, playful thing.

And like, especially with men, it was like this backlash of like, Oh, I'm not a girl. And it's like, whoa, you know.

Like, I'm not saying you are. It's more like a Hey dude, you know, but in that moment, like, it's just so eye-opening to me, because then it's like, my, well, my hope is that in that situation, it's like, but that's the example of, like, the backlash. Like, that individual does not prefer that male individual, right?

Does not identify as a girl, as a woman, does not want to be called a girl or a woman does not want to be called a she or her. That individual is a man. Identifies as a man, is male, you know, and wants to use he/him, great, you know.

And I want to be respectful of that, so I'm going to say like he/him. It's the same thing as it comes to like a non-binary person, or, you know, if it's a trans person that you know is transitioning and you switching from she to her, or she to him, or or vice versa.

You know, it's just, it's just being respectful, like, be cool. You know, it takes zero energy to be polite and nice to somebody.

And I just especially in, like, the climate, today's climate, the last several years, of everything that's been going on, I just it feels like every other day I wonder to myself, like whatever happened to like that golden rule and just being respectful.

So yeah, probably a bit of a bit of a tangent on that one, but I feel like it's just a simple thing. It's just about being respectful. That's why they matter.

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. And you kind of touched upon this as well. You know, talking about with your husband, you know, if he has a slip-up, he's good to catch it.

But for somebody who accidentally misgenders someone, how should they proceed with that?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, so, I mean, the biggest thing with that is you can't make it about yourself as the person who may have fouled and don't get defensive.

You know, that was the thing that I've experienced in my own journey and with with some friends and even family and even my husband, where at first, you know, when you try to correct them, they would get defensive. And it's like, this isn't an attack, right?

Like, it's just like, acknowledge the hiccup and move on, you know. So, like, if you do realize that you've said that wrong pronoun, you know, quickly apologize and keep the conversation moving.

You purposely correct yourself. Whether it's just like repeating whatever you said but using the correct pronoun, or if you're continuing the conversation, you're still talking about that person, making sure you're using the correct pronoun.

You know, don't make excuses again, and just you got to work to improve period. So yeah, but I guess I really want to emphasize the don't get defensive, you know. Don't make it about you.

It's about just being respectful. Realize that we all, my hope is that everyone realizes that they're not perfect. We're all trying to, my hope work to be better, you know, and by being called out for your misgendering, it's about helping you be a better person.

It's not about villainizing you, you know what I mean?

Gender Identity & Sexual Orientation (31:13)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I think a lot of people confuse gender identity with sexual orientation.

So, can you kind of explain the two?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, absolutely. So, gender identity is about your sense of self, right? And it's how individuals perceive themselves and what they want to call themselves, you know?

And it's like essentially the concept of who they are as that individual. Some people are male, some people are female, some people are neither.

Some people are a blend of both. And again, the sexual orientation is is the heart. Gender identity is more the brain.

Rob Loveless

What does being non-binary mean to you in terms of embracing your identity?

Travis McMaster

At first, I kind of just like it means everything. But I thought that's such a cop-out answer. But it, I feel it also kind of isn't because it's, it's a part of my core, right?

It's part of my, my nucleus. It's like who I am, you know, and being able to feel like I can identify as who I am, I know I'm going to be able to go out to the world of being the best version of myself, you know, whether it's in my job or my relationships with my friends or family, you know, so being able to have that language it because it just really does.

It means everything, you know, in a world that is, like, wrapped up in labels and identifications, you know, knowing that, you know, I don't have to necessarily be one thing or the other, you know, I love, you know, I can't believe it hasn't happened already.

I usually makes some type of food analogy, because I love food, but like, so I make that point of like, as a person that loves a buffet moment, because I just love the options.

I love the spread, you know, as a non-binary person, I feel like it's, it's very similar, where there's just so many options, there's no right or wrong.

You know, that you can be this way, you can be that way, or you can go this way, you can go that way. And there's just this immense level of freedom that I feel like I have because of like, this is how I identify.

You know, it's not, it's not men's jeans, women's sweaters. It's just jeans and sweaters, you know? It's not a murse or a purse. It's just a purse, you know? It's just, it's just it feels freeing, and it just feels so simple.

Misconceptions About Non-Binary Identities (33:31)

Rob Loveless

And I love that analogy. That's a really good one. With that being said too, like you said, there's no right or wrong, it just is, you know.

But what are some misconceptions people have about being non-binary or using they/them pronouns?

Travis McMaster

Yeah. So sure, there's more than, like, a lot, that we can unpack, but the few things that kind of stand out for me is, I think from a as the identity, there is no right or wrong way. There is.

I mean, even I would say that kind of applies to like men and women, but like for non-binary people, this is something I struggled with and kind of had to work through, where I was like, oh, does this mean I now have to start wearing more dresses or more skirts?

No, it doesn't. If I'm not drawn to it, I'm not gonna wear it, you know. So, it doesn't necessarily mean one thing or the other, you know. And so, there's no right or so as the individual, there's no right or wrong way to be, to exist, you know.

As for people who don't identify as non-binary, you know, know that like we are not confused. You know, like we're, there's no confusion in terms of being a man or a woman, because like, essentially, like, it's that's not, that's irrelevant. We are, we are neither, or we are both.

So, it goes back to that idea of like, when people say who, when people tell you who they are, believe them. Using they/them, I feel like we always hear the whole people want to boil down the language.

I just recently had this happen at a party with a friend who was like, Oh no, it's it's not a it's always plural. It's like, no, it's not then you got it had that had that language reminder of like, how you might use they or them in a singular instance, when talking about anybody or anything, you know, or like, even a like, a thing, right?

Like, I might say, like, for example, one of our dogs, well, one in particular, Annabelle. She loves to lick the bowl, right? She needs all the flavor. So, you know, and where it sits, it can easily fall down the basement steps, because she'll just, like, push it right around.

So, to say, like, where did their bowl go? You know, like, there's that example of it. I'm talking about one dog because it's Annabelle's bowl. But there's no, like, there's nothing plural about it. So, so I'd say, yeah, the plural aspect of it, yeah, I think, I guess I kind of, I think that covers the standout things for me.

Rob Loveless

I think it's interesting too, how you touched upon, you know, the misconception of the plurality of they/them, because that was actually something, this was back in, I think 2021, one of my family members.

I don't even know how the conversation came up, but they said something like, you know, oh, I feel bad using they/them pronouns because it feels disrespectful. And, you know, it's plural.

And I told them, I said, well, one, if somebody's telling you they want to be addressed as they/them, then that's being respectful. That's not being disrespectful.

But the other thing is too I, and I saw this on social media, which is how I had this example to give to this family member. But you know, when the mail person drops off the mail, people always go, oh, they dropped off the mail today, or they left this in the mail today.

They're using they in a singular sense there. So, in that situation, it's okay. But then if somebody's saying, you know, I want to be referred to with they/them pronouns, suddenly that's not okay because it's plural.

So, people already, you know, throughout the English language, have used they in a singular sense, but now they want to kind of be resistant to using they when you're looking the person in the face.

Travis McMaster

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I think it's one of those things where you don't even kind of think about how much you have done it until you're asked to do it specifically for an individual.

To that point, you know, you said family member, you said they, and I don't know who this person is, right?

And so, like, what it was just like, so seamless for you to say, you know, I had this family member, they had this question, and I'm none the wiser, because, you know, again, I don't know who they are. It's fine.

So, like, that's where, that's where I think the, I guess, essentially, the deprogramming of of the thoughts that we all probably have from so many years of like, burning in a person is a he, a person is a she.

You know, just getting more relaxed to it and being exposed. That kind of feels like a full circle moment, why visibility is so important, right?

You know, like you're you're not gonna get familiar with a person, a type of person, until you're like, exposed and like sitting with that person right having dialog, having the conversation.

The Importance of Visibility (38:24)

Rob Loveless

And at the beginning the episode, you talked about visibility and how that helped you with realizing your non-binary identity.

So why do you think LGBTQ+ visibility is so important, especially in smaller cities and towns, and then as a double parter to that, how can LGBTQ+ individuals find their community in these areas?

Travis McMaster

When it comes to visibility, it's so important. And I think I said this earlier, but like it, it just makes it so tangible, right? It makes it so real, you know?

And I think back to growing up and hearing my parents and my parents’ friends talking about gay people, or like, when The Birdcage came out, it was like this movie with this gay character, or Will & Grace, you know, and Jack, admittedly, I've up on it.

I haven't seen him any episodes of the show. But, like, it's all those things where it's like, okay, it's on the TV. You know, there's a level of fiction that kind of comes with it, because it's in its own TV where, you know when you're visible and you're out, you are tangible.

You are real to that person. People can see. People know you exist, you know and it, it's just, it's so important, because I think it helps humanize people you know, so many, unfortunately, so many who are swayed by certain sources of where they get their information from.

And I think forget that like these, we are talking about real human beings, real people that exist, that have red blood, have a heart that can be broken, that have knees that can be scratched. And you know, this portion of the. Identity is like such a small part of that person.

So, you know, being able to show that we're just another group of people and we're just trying to live our lives, do well, you know, have a good job, have a couple dogs, etc, you know, I think it's so important. And when it comes to specifically small towns and cities.

I think there's this thought that some people have. I feel like I had it growing up, that is, a lot of small towns are have a stigma over them, right?

Where the commonly more conservative can be, I suppose, you know. And as as an LGBTQ+ person, you have to go to a big city, you go to a major metropolitan area. But you know what?

That's not the journey for everybody. And not everybody wants to do that. Some people like the ease and relaxation of a small town, they want to be there. And, you know, good for them, they should be able to exist there.

So, by having people, yeah, and I think it comes back to this visibility and tangibility, where, like, having people be out in this small town that it very much, I think, helps put that stamp on, like we are everywhere, like literally everywhere.

And like every other type of person, we should be able to live wherever we want. You know, so and I just, I think it just helps speak volumes, especially then for younger folk. You've seen people having those examples of, okay, this is cool, like it's real again.

And if that young person decides to move on to a big city, good for them. But if they choose to stay in that community, you know, also good for them. Now, the back half of the question was about finding community.

Obviously, it's a lot trickier when you live in a smaller town and, you know, there's not a gayborhood or, like, a area where, you know, it's like the designated gay bar or lesbian bar or what have you.

So, you know, I think it's, I think the first step is remembering that we are everywhere and that in a smaller community. It just means it might be a little bit trickier. So, you got to get creative with things.

I think the best piece of advice I could really give about finding community at this point is paying attention to like, where from, like where you live, what Pride organizations exist around where you live, and pay attention to what those organizations are doing beyond a Pride festival, right?

So, when we moved here to Franklin County, you know, it's about an hour away from where we have always lived, we didn't know anybody. Um, there, of course, there was the concern of, like, conservative people being conservative and, you know, but it we've, we had that at where we used to live, and just, you kind of roll with it, you know, keep safety in mind.

But we came here and they, it was so refreshing to see, like, going to, like Starbucks, they had a Pride Franklin County sticker on the door. I needed to find a new hair stylist because I'm not going to drive an hour to get my hair done because of my schedule and whatnot.

So, you know, I be able to go to that Pride to Pride Franklin County and see their list of vendors from Pride events like, okay, well, this is a spot where I can these people are coming to Pride events for the businesses, you know, my hope is that they're, they are genuinely supportive of the community.

You know, in that case, that led me to a salon that also had one of those stickers on the door that very much is like, oh, you know, we are accepting.

And I'm, you know, thrilled to say now one of our close friends, Justin, and his husband, Brandon, you know, I met through going to the salon and having Brandon do my hair. So, I think, you know, be be mindful of what those organizations are doing.

Or, you know, ask if, like, are those organizations doing any type of, like, social mixers or meetups and whatnot. Again, prior to Franklin County, this was just like two days ago, they had their monthly meetup, and this is the second time we've gone and it, it's so lovely. I mean, like it, it brings such a smile to my face that in the last two months, Jared and I now have at least six new friends because of that, who are either in the community or, like very much, an ally of the community.

And it's just it's so refreshing to see that. So, I would say, leverage social media, or leveraging this Pride organizations maybe through their social medias to get connected. Yeah, I think obviously you gotta be safe. I always think I try to think about safety first, because I don't want to just say, use social media.

Like, what does that even mean? Like, how do you connect with people, especially because of the safety of it? all. You know, I don't, I don't have any experience on any of the apps, because, I mean, I met my husband on MySpace, and we've been together ever since then.

So, my hope is that maybe, like, through that you can, at least, like, not necessarily, like, hook up by any means, but like, maybe, maybe you get a coffee, right?

Or, like, see if there's a group of people, or, I don't know. I guess I should, I can probably stop rambling. I really feel like try to leverage those Pride organizations.

Like it has been just really good coming here to seeing what Pride of Franklin County has done to help build community, you know, to speak on what Chad and Corey are doing with Gettysburg in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, with Gettysburg Pride where, pardon me, you know, outside of the main Pride fest, they occasionally have different like theater events or meetups, you know, I guess, like, that's thing, like, think to where, as terrible as it might sound, stereotypically, where some certain people the community flock to, you might find community there.

I mean, theater is what it is. You know, plenty of people have gone to that are part of our community. You have resonated with the theater community. So maybe that's your first in you know, I think of like the Rainbow Rose Center out of York, and how they're like, helping York, Pennsylvania and in Hanover as well.

Like, have different like, whether it's different events, whether it's like meetups, or they just had a, what was it like, all-inclusive holiday bazaar? It's the point I'm trying to get at, that I'm kind of belittled or belaboring is like, see where these organizations are doing events where the whole idea is to draw and build community.

And you know, especially if you're not someone that likes to meet new people, well, get ready to practice to say hello. This is my name, you know. Like, what do you all do for fun around here? Do you want to meet up for bowling? Meet up for a movie? Have some coffee, etc.?

And I guess, be ready to kind of throw your throw yourself out there, but always, always, always, just like, have safety in the back your mind, you know, just because some people were jerks.

Rob Loveless

And back in, I think, summer of 2022, we did an episode on ways to find your community. And like you said, there are a lot of online resources like Meetup.com, I think.

That's actually something since I've moved to Philly, I've been looking at. Again, I'm in a city, so there's more, you know, LGBTQ+ inclusive groups. But usually every you know, most towns still have something.

And I think it's really important to you know, if you can find one person who also identifies like yourself, somebody else who's in the gay community, or somebody else who might be non-binary, odds are they have a network of friends, especially if you're in a place where you're newer and they're more established, they probably have a network of like-minded friends.

So, by befriending one person, you can unlock a whole new friend group as well, which is something you know, I've been going through here in Philly.

I, you know, became friends with somebody that I've known through Instagram for a few years and everything. But once I moved to Philly, I messaged him like, hey, I don't have friends.

Do you want to hang out? And he's also, you know, he's also a member of the LGBTQ+ community. I've met him and his boyfriend, who are great. I've got to know their friends.

So, it's really helped me, kind of, by befriending one person, befriend a group of people.

So that's kind of just a long-winded way of saying, you know, if you can find somebody that you can see yourself in, whether it's, you know, gender identity, sexual orientation-wise, you know, you might be able to unlock a larger friend group through that person as well.

Travis McMaster

Yeah, I could just build on that. I think that it's, there's a reminder to when it comes to finding community, take that one step at a time, you know, it's, I would rather have, like, four really tight friends right then.

Like, you know, I'm very social, and I love meeting people, but I think, like, when you're trying to build your community and whatnot, like it's if it's just you and one other person, and that's just you and one other person for however long, think that's fine, you know, like, let it, let it be natural in its growth.

And know that there's like, no rush to, I guess, make it like, really, have it like, blow up and make it, I think I'm falling apart with my answer. I guess the point I I'm really trying to drive home is that, you know it, it might take some time be ready to be patient with it.

And I guess really appreciate, like, what you have as you slowly start to build the community.

This is where I'm trying to get at because, like, even for us when we moved here, we're very fortunate where we have two sets of neighbors who are, well, I guess there's a few by us that, like, we are very supportive of the community and whatnot, the one is a member of the community, but that, you know, there's something about wanting to have friends who are in the community, right?

So, you know when it when meeting Justin, it was like, oh, we should hang out some time. Like, oh, you have a partner. Like, well, I have a partner too I have a husband. Like, let's, let's do this.

You know, to your point about you reached out to that individual and being like, Hey, I'm in town. I'm new here. Can we meet up? I feel like, and they were receptive to it, right?

I feel like so often, like, that's one of the benefits that maybe we don't talk about enough in this community where I think, because at a certain point, I think it's safe to say we've all had to look for that community. It's almost like a rite of passage, right?

As an LGBTQ+ person like you gotta come out, you gotta figure yourself out. You gotta come out, and then part of it is building the community.

So, to have anybody like reach out. I mean, if someone reach out to me and say, like, oh, you know, I I identify this way, or whatever, would you want to hang out? Or, like, have coffee?

Like, absolutely, like, I'm always looking to expand my own LGBTQ+ community of friends, you know. So, I think it's great that it can go both ways as well.

LGBTQ+ Icons (50:59)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And like you said, it's, you know, you want to take it as a slow process and really focus on the quality over quantity.

But, um, you know, in terms of talking about the importance of visibility, do you mind telling us some of your favorite non-binary or LGBTQ+ icons that you stan and you know how they're helping to promote visibility around the non-binary community?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, so I feel like I have a list of people, and when trying to, like, figure out who I would say in this I realized all the people that I would call out comes with this energy of authenticity, right?

So, know that, like, that's where I'm starting at because, like that energy I resonate with, you know, I use it as an inspiration for myself, especially on, like, hard days where I just either want to stay in bed all day or just like whatever. So, and these people have, like their their own style, their own aesthetic.

But as as for non-binary folk, Alok for sure, again, Alok Vaid-Menon, you know, their book gender Beyond the Gender Binary. I listen to that at least once a year, like I just recently, re listened to it. It's the pocket collection. It's super quick. I'm an audiobook person, so there's so much knowledge there.

And I just, I'm so thankful for them, really, just being so open with who they are and advocating for the community as a whole. And, yeah, I mean, like, I just, I think they're incredible. I got to meet them at Out and Equal last year. It was, it was it was awesome.

Like, I just, again, I'm just so appreciative, appreciative of just their commitment to wanting to make everything better for everybody. Because honestly, like it, and people say, like gay rights or this rights, but like, ultimately, it's, it's just rights. We just want equality.

We want to be treated with respectfully. So Alok, for sure, Jacob Kelly, who is who also performs as a non-binary drag queen, Trixie Valentine. So, they are an inclusive sex educator, entrepreneur with their own business Mix Kelly Queer Education LLC, and they specifically specialize in teaching about diversity, equity, inclusion.

So, DEI in the workspace, but they do different LGBTQIA+ trainings and sex education workshops. But between them as their self, as their as an entrepreneur, but then them as Trixie Valentine, the non-binary drag queen, they they're just such an inspiration.

So, Jacob is lives in northeastern Pennsylvania. I guess last year, Jacob and his twin were on a game show, oh, the person from Glee. I'm failing on it. Anyway, the point is, you know, I tell you Jacob is just basically one of, like, the hardest working people that I know.

I'm thankful to have the friendship that I have with them. You know, they're inspiring to me. They've been so kind with their time, where I've had questions over the last couple of years with different things, and, you know, they'll respond and whatnot.

You know they're very much like a look like I feel like they whether they say that to themselves every day when they wake up and look at themselves in the mirror, or they just know only how to be like. They just, they're always pushing for the positive change for people in the community, for people outside the community. And it's just, it's so inspiring, right?

So, Jacob Kelly, for sure. You know, Billy Porter. Of course, Billy Porter is not non-binary, but Billy Porter just like pushes the like, being authentic, being true to oneself. I love Billy's music. Billy's last album, Black Mona Lisa, it's amazing. You know?

Like there's so much like inspiration and like power and like energy behind that. But then, I guess, just to kind of throw out a few other quick names for people you know, Jonathan Van Ness from Queer Eye Tabitha Coffee, who people might remember from Tabitha salon takeover. Tabitha takes over.

She's incredible businessperson. You know, leaders, leader, coach, person, hairstylist, I would say Alaska Thunderfuck. You know, people probably know Alaska from being on Drag Race and whatnot.

I love Alaska's book. It was so insightful in gaining Alaska's perspective of like, how, how Alaska identifies as a person and whatnot. That's also a book that I revisit quite often, another Pennsylvanian, and then I would say, like RuPaul, John Waters, just to name a few more.

Again, all these people I mentioned, it starts with the level of authenticity that they're putting out there, you know, encouraging people to be authentic to themselves, and I almost forgot I actually do this with my Insta story.

So, I have on my wall an autograph picture of Dennis O'Hare from season five of American Horror Story when he played Liz Taylor. I get that this is a fictional character that Dennis played, right? But I think for me, that character, like, I look at that picture and was like, holy smokes.

Like that is like, that character, that story, aesthetic, like so much a part of like, my inspiration, where I just, I was blown away that, you know, I see that picture every day because I'm sitting at my desk where I work, and you're coming here to record this interview with you today to talk about identity and all those things.

You know, it's like the picture just stood out to me, and I get again, it's a character on TV, but, like, it's still, it's still a source of inspiration, a source of, I would say, hope, right? So, I just, I wanted to shout out that out.

So, thank you, Dennis O'Hare for being so awesome and citing that wonderful picture that I covet and love so much.

Caffeinated N’ Queer (57:05)

Rob Loveless

So, I know we kind of teased this up front, but do you mind telling us more about your series, Caffeinated N' Queer, and how your non-binary identity kind of inspired to create the series?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, so Caffeinated N' Queer is a caffeine-fueled video series with an LGBTQ+ focus, you know, and this series really just is about, you know, it's somewhat like a love letter to our community, and it's also a selfish way for me to force myself to be more educated and informed of our community's history, and then wanting to share it, right?

So, you know, in terms of, like, what started this series, prior for a few years that started in the pandemic, I did this, like coffee video series called Caffeinated and Dangerous, where I was just like, grabbing coffee and throwing stuff in and see if it was a combination that worked.

You know, pancake syrup is a good sweetener. Mixing cold brew coffee and tomato juice is terrible. And if you want to see my response to that, go look up that video. I was delighted to find out from so many people that enjoyed the series. Watched the series, whatever.

But for myself, you know, after two seasons, if you will, I was like, this is dumb. Like, I don't drink half this stuff. I feel like I'm half-wasting the product. And I so I kind of started talking focus more, just drinking black coffee and trying different coffees.

And then over the years, it's like, I have this thing, you know, I love it, but, you know, there's no value in it. And I had been, like I mentioned, like my band has been not active, just having some other focuses, focusing on career and whatnot, from personally, speaking and so around a few months ago, I had just did a few Caffeinated and Dangerous episodes, because it was like, why not, right?

It was fun, but I'm like, what? And I did a poll, and people were like, yeah, like, more of this, but there's just no value in this for me, at least, right? Like, outside of, like, being fun and entertaining and encouraging people to go try coffee combinations or try different coffees.

And so, when I had, so, so what do I want to do, right? And I've been looking for a new creative project, and I had a bit of an identity crisis as who I am outside of, like, the workplace and like, what do I want to do?

Like, I've, last three years, been trying to be more, I guess, in my own way of activism, in terms of speaking at Pride events, you know, being a public speaker, having presenting a talk, and professionally styled, and I, like, I had the opportunity to go on a few podcasts a few months ago and talk about some movies with Cult Cinema Circle.

Hey, Jesse. And you know, it was when I had the opportunity to be on The Minoritea Report in November. So, shout out to Dawon, Kerel, and Jerrell. They're great. Actually, Kerel, he's in Philadelphia, as well as a small tangent, but that week after it came out, I just, I was so thankful, and we and we talked about it on that conversation where, like, for me, like, I'm just so thankful to be in any space where people want to allow others to hear their stories or shared lived experiences, right?

Like, I'm just so forever grateful for the friends that I have and the people who have shared those things, where it really got me thinking, like, maybe that's what I do with Caffeinated and Dangerous when, like, the name just didn't it just didn't work, and I kid you not, like I was making coffee, and it was like, Wait, why not?

Like, Caffeinated N' Queer. And at that point it was just like, off to the races, where it's just like, holy smokes, like, this could be it. I could do my little coffee thing where I have a drink.

Maybe I'm trying something, but like being genuine, you know, or, you know, it's not like Franklin signing drinks, but then talking about the community, and, like I said, using as a means to be more informed of our history.

Because, I mean, you turn on the news in every other states, banning books, you know, gross, you know, and being this, and being a resource, or, like, kind of setting up my own platform where I can do what I want, you know, meaning I can inform, educate, etc, but I can also, you know, share and recommend, not too dissimilar from like, how I am when I'm in person.

You know, my favorite activity is just sitting down with a group of people or one person over drinks, whether that's an alcohol drink or coffee, and just chatting, I mean, for hours, right? And so, I was like, this, this could be it.

And so I, you know, I had this hope of, you know, figuring out technology and bringing up, being able to bring on guests where that way, very similar, especially for, like, what Minoritea Report did, and like, what you're doing for me here in this interview, like sharing your space with me, you know, being able to then set up my own space where then I can invite others in to share, and kind of project them out to a different audience.

So, I think, as it relates to identity, it's more, I think bigger, to me, it's about community and just having another platform for our community to be a source of education, information, recommendations, a lot of the tions.

Rob Loveless

That's awesome. I you know, I love the work that you're doing on that, especially around the LGBTQ+ history, because I think there is so much history, but so many of us within our own community don't even know it, because it wasn't taught to us.

And you know, a lot of it's been pushed down by patriarchal society. It hasn't been what people wanted to promote or learn about. But a lot of the issues, you know, a lot of the history that's gone on in the past is what has led us to today.

And honestly, history repeats itself, and so it's really important to be in touch with those things, so that we don't become complacent as a community, and that we continue to speak up and raise our voices.

Travis McMaster

Yeah, I mean, it's so important. I mean, I would say, like, as a as a punk rock kid, as a rock and roll kid, you know, hearing about book banning is, like, gross.

You know, I'm not for that, but I very much think of, like, how much, how much I've had to grow, and I as a person, where I kind of had to, how do I want to say it, where it I feel like I could have grew a lot faster, not easier, if there were certain pieces of education that were there a lot earlier.

You know, I one memory that sticks out in my brain is when this is many years ago, like I had one understanding of what drag was, right? It's mostly based off of this first few seasons of Drag Race.

So, when Carmen Carrera, you know, called out the show for not having for not being more inclusive, you know, I just remember thinking, like, I didn't get it at the time. And it was like, I just, I didn't understand the point that Carmen was making.

And so, you know, a little bit of time passes, and then, like, I finally watched Paris is Burning, and I start Googling, and I start this, and it's like, holy smokes. Like, there's so much history.

I mean, of course, like some of it, you gotta look for. It takes a little harder to look to find, but it's like, my goodness, how much more would we be better off if we had more exposure to said history?

You know, especially given like, the impact that it has had on everything, you know, I think, like even with just language, right, like Black and Brown people in the New York ball scene, doing in ball culture and like the language that came from that now some like random straight white woman in.

Saying things like that, slaves or whatever, and it's like, you have no concept of, like, where it came from. So, like, that's where, for me, it's just like, it needs to be brought up, it needs to be shared.

Because if, again, as a pushback, people are gonna, people are gonna, like, ban books, well then I'm gonna talk about it, you know, and like, I want to do my whatever I can to help be a source of education and information.

LGBTQIA+ Initialism (1:05:26)

Rob Loveless

I really loved your first episode, because it was kind of a back-to-basics moment, which was very important, which kind of just went over what the full LGBTQIA+ acronym was and what all the letters stood for.

Because I think a lot of us in the community, one don't even realize how many letters are within that acronym. And two, what the letters actually stand for.

So, would you mind walking us through that, and you know, giving the meanings of all the letters to be fully inclusive of the whole acronym?

Travis McMaster

Yeah. So LGBTQIA2S, there's so many iterations right of the initialism, so I'm just going to kind of pull like what I did from that episode.

So, L is lesbian, right? And so, a lesbian is a woman who is emotionally, romantically, or sexually attracted to other women, and women and non-binary, people may use this term to describe themselves.

G stands for gay, and this is a person who is emotionally, romantically, or sexually attracted to members of the same gender, and men, women, and non-binary people may use this term to describe themselves.

B stands for bisexual, and you know, commonly you can, you'll hear and it's just bi or bi+. But this term refers to the person who is emotionally, romantically, or sexually attracted to more than one gender, not necessarily simultaneously, in the same way or to the same degree.

And so, a bi person could have attraction to genders that are similar or different from their own.

T is transgender, so that it's often shortened to just trans, which is the Latin prefix for on a, on a different side as and the term describes a person whose gender identity does not necessarily match their assigned sex at birth.

The trans is often considered new more inclusive than transgender because then it's accounting for terms like transgender, transsexual, trans masc, trans femme.

But this term can also be used to describe groups of people who transcend conventional expectations of gender identity or expression, you know, such as groups but are not limited to, of course, people who identify as transsexual, genderqueer, gender variant, gender diverse, non-binary, or androgynous.

And it's important to remember that being transgender does not imply a specific sexual orientation. Okay? So, like therefore transgender people may identify as straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc.

Now, depending on the version of the initialism that you might see, sometimes there are times where you see the Q twice. So, there's two different meanings, I would say, commonly, if you're seeing Q once, it's fair to assume that the Q stands for queer.

So that's, of course, a term that's often used to express the spectrum of identities and orientations that are counter to the mainstream, and it's basically a catch-all term, right, to include as many people who like do not identify exclusively as straight, or folks that may be non-binary or that are gender expansive in some way.

And I guess I do want to call out the fact that queer is a term that has been used as a slur and that there are parts of the community that have reclaimed it. I specifically am a person who has reclaimed it again, like I have a whole series named after it, but I do understand that why some people could not reclaim that and are not a fan of the term.

So, Q could also stand for questioning, right? So that basically, it's a way to describe people who are in the process of discovering or exploring their sexual orientation or gender identity or gender expression, or any kind of of those combos, you know?

And it's important to remember that you know a questioning person does not implicitly imply that an individual is lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer. So, moving along because we've got a bunch more letters so I is intersex, right?

So, this is a term that's used to refer to people who are biologically between the medically expected definitions of male and female, and this can be through variations in hormones or chromosomes or internal or external genitalia, and any combination of or all primary and/or secondary sex characteristics, right?

So, an intersex person can be any gender identity, any sexual orientation, and any romantic orientation. And the term, the medical terms hermaphrodite and pseudo hermaphrodite were previously used, but these terms are now considered neither acceptable nor scientifically accurate.

So, let's you know scratch those from our vocabulary. A stands for asexual, which is often shortened to ace, and asexual refers to a complete or partial lack of sexual attraction or lack of interest in sexual activity with others.

Each asexual person experiences relationships, attraction, and arousal differently, and asexuality is a sexual orientation that does not necessarily define sexual behaviors. Also, asexuality is, you know, in and of itself, its own spectrum.

And so, an ace person, you can have varying ways that they experience their relationships, attraction, and arousal. The P, and I don't think I, I may have missed the P when I gave one of the other initialisms, but P stands for pansexual.

So, a pansexual person is a person who has the potential for emotionally, romantic, or sexual attraction to people of any gender, though not necessarily simultaneously, in the same way or to the same degree.

And depending on the individual person, bisexuality and pansexuality, they may not be mutually exclusive, or they may be.

And actually, around the time I discovered, Rob, your show, you had the guest on that talked about being bisexual, and I recall that individual specifically being like they are not mutually exclusive.

And it was, again, it was one of those moments where it was so eye-opening for me to be able to hear that person share their lived experience.

So, thank you for thanks for that person for sharing. And of course, thank you for having the platform to share, to give them the opportunity to share that. Because I found that very insightful.

Rob Loveless

I think that was the episode about bi-erasure with Sam McClain.

Travis McMaster

Yep, that's the one. Yeah. Fantastic episode. Those who are listening to this go check out that episode for sure. And then so two out, two more things. So 2s or 2 you might see it stands for Two Spirit.

And Two Spirit is an umbrella, yeah. Two Spirit is an umbrella term used within some Native American indigenous cultures, used to refer to a person who identifies as having both male and female essence, or spirit. And the term can encompass your sexual, cultural, gender, or spiritual identities.

And though this shouldn't have to be said, I said it on my episode, and I'm going to say it here, non-Indigenous people should not use this term as a way to describe themselves. Like Two Spirit, 2s it's for Indigenous folk. Be respectful. And then lastly is the plus sign.

So the plus is used to encompass, basically, those identities that are not being used in whatever version of the initialism that you might be seeing, hearing, reading, so that you might hear LGBT+, LGBTQ+, LGBTQIA+, you know, so the plus is a way to, again, say, we know it's more than just what we've already announced, and we're trying to be inclusive, um, because if I could just take a few other minutes just to share you when it comes to the initialism, you know, there's you.

You'll see across the board, some people say LGBTQ, LGBTQIA, you know, ultimately, I would encourage you to, like, find the one that works for you. You know, to say LGBTQI or LGBTQQIA2sP, like, I'm struggling here in this moment, trying to say it like it's just messy and it just sounds disrespectful and gross.

So, you know, be to be able to say LGBTQ+ and say it smoothly. You know, keep that in mind as you're figuring out how you done or when you're speaking of the community, referring to the community, so keep that plus there.

Personally, I think I love LGBTQ+ and LGBTQIA+, but yeah, so that is, that's the initialism.

Rob Loveless

Super informative. Thank you for walking us through that. That actually tied back to something I meant to ask earlier on, relating to gender identity.

You know, there's terms like, non-binary, genderqueer, gender fluid. I guess, you know, what, what do each of those mean? And is there a preferred word to use, or more politically correct word to use?

Like is, is non-binary more kind of like a blanket term, and then gender fluid, genderqueer are more specific, or is there, you know, is it really up to the person which word they like to use?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, I would say it's probably more up to the individual person. I don't know if there's necessarily a right or wrong. I feel like I've heard non-binary be used as that umbrella term for your gender-expansive, genderqueer.

But I would say when in doubt, like, use the language that the person you're talking about has used to identify themselves.

Alder Health Services (1:15:36)

Rob Loveless

Okay, sounds good. And then, kind of pivoting from what we talked about, adding to your impressive list on your resume, you're also a board member of Alder Health Services.

So, can you tell us more about the great work they do and how you got involved?

Travis McMaster

Absolutely. Love Alder Health Services. So, I, yeah, I joined the board back in June of last year.

Alder is based out of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and they work to improve the health and well-being of individuals living with HIV or AIDS and members of the LGBTQ+ communities, specifically in south-central Pennsylvania, by providing an inclusive and affirming environment that empowers, you know, the people they serve.

They do serve, it's about a 10 actually, it is a 10-county region of Pennsylvania, and so in terms of services, they provide, again, that nonjudgmental environment for HIV and STI testing. It can help HIV-positive individuals with their case management and support.

It can help patients access gender-affirming primary medical care services. And you can, you don't have to even have HIV or AIDS or be someone that is looking for gender-affirming care.

You can have primary care services, right? Like so, for example, like my husband and I could go there as our regular family physician if we wanted to. Admittedly, given that this proximity to where I live is why I don't go there. But so, there's a lot of different like health-related things that they do.

They also have a wellness center, and, you know, have done hella different yoga classes from time to time. I just, I just, I love it.

So, I got actually involved through the organization. I had the opportunity to do some volunteer work through them, through my employer's annual day of volunteerism, and I saw a little bit behind the scenes, like I, I'm also a LGBTQIA like ERG or BRG, which stands for employee resource group, or business resource group leader where I work.

And so, for this day of volunteerism, you know, I specifically was on a mission, and there was an ask to to find an LGBTQ+ org. So, I knew where I was going, right, like I knew of Alder for many years, you know, and again, from a proximity where I live.

I just, I did not leverage them, because I just wasn't informed enough of like, all they had to offer. You know, another thing they have is an on-site pharmacy, but I just, I didn't know about all their care options at the time.

So having this opportunity to volunteer with them, I just, I fell in love the CEO Rosemary, the, that first time, because I've now had the opportunity to volunteer twice in this day of volunteerism.

But back in 2022 I think I may have said the date incorrectly the first time, but yeah, that first time in 2022, Rosemary sent us all with like the bag, with all the pamphlets of all the services and all the things you do. And I'm a early riser thanks to our oldest Beagle, who is very strict about his food schedule.

So that next morning, you know, it's 5 am the Beagles are chowing down on their food, and I'm just reading through all this collateral and, you know, honestly, like kind of coming to tears, because I just had no idea this great organization was essentially in my own backyard.

And couldn't help but think back to 2007 when I was coming out, the health scare that I had, dealing with the doctors that I'm like, I'm barely comfortable saying that I'm gay, and now I got to tell these doctors why I think I have certain this illness, or why I'm sick and whatnot, and like, everything about this sucks.

So that's where I was just like, Oh my goodness. Like, people need to know about this. So, when you know, I was asked about joining, it was like, what an honor.

So, it was so thankful to have the opportunity to help support this organization bring awareness to it. They do great work trying to support again, people with HIV or AIDS and the LGBTQ+ community. So yeah, check them out.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. That's great work you're doing. I mean, it's definitely much needed in the community to have those inclusive spaces, especially in healthcare.

Advice for Navigating Gender Identity (1:19:49)

Rob Loveless

As we're kind of coming towards the end of this episode, what advice would you give to someone who may be struggling with their gender identity?

Travis McMaster

Yeah, so I guess I first would say I'm not a doctor. I'm not a psychologist. You know, my I will say, these are just my opinions and suggestions.

Yeah, that's such a loaded question, though, from where I sit, because I feel like it really depends on the individual that we're talking about, because factors come into play, like safety, of course. Are they a young person? Are they an older person?

So, if I could speak more broadly, or as broad as I possibly can, you know, I would encourage the person to find someone they can trust, especially, you know, if they're a young person, find an adult that they can trust, that they can just kind of talk through.

And I specifically want to call out young people, because I get, I understand the reality of the safety, like you might not be safe at home.

You know, you might not be there's, it's hard to find areas of safety, but that's where I would encourage those people, and again, people all ages, you know, check out translifeline.org or the Trevor Project.

Specifically, because they both those organizations have hotlines you can call to talk to somebody if you if you feel like you have nobody that you feel like you can talk to, you know? And those, those websites, also really good resources to help you kind of work through that. Yeah.

And I would also encourage individuals to look up other LGBTQ+ organizations like the LGBT Center, you know, there's a lot of them sprinkled throughout the country, or PFLAG, for example.

You know, again, they're these nonprofits have a lot of different chapters that you can kind of leverage for resources to pull and, you know, I guess I would remind them, regardless of the age, and I know I said earlier, like you might not have anybody and you're struggling to find somebody to talk to.

But it's so important to remember that like the journey you're going through while it is, while it is exclusive to you and your lived experience, you're not alone on the fact of going through this journey and the journey of figuring out self.

And so, I want to just remind listeners and anyone that might be struggling with their gender identity that you know you're not alone. Your life is definitely worth it.

You know, I don't want to, I don't want to, I guess, get too dark on this, but I feel like it needs to be said because, like, the struggle can be very real for some people. I can't, I can't imagine, as like, what it would be like as a young person trying to live knowing they are like a trans individual, for example, and just like the weight of the world, especially given the way it is now like.

So just stay strong. You know, and know that you know it's there are resources out there, there are people out there that care. Again, translifeline.org, Trevor Project. I'd also like to say, remember, you're not in competition with anyone, and this is like, this is your journey, like it's personal.

So do your best not to compare yourself, you know, like with so many things in life, we I feel like we get in competition with each other, unintentionally. Working through your gender identity, it's no different. You know, it is exclusive to you. It can be whatever it is to you.

So don't get caught up on thinking you're not enough because you're not this or that. From like, a, if I could just kind of throw in some, like, fun tips, you know, if you're struggling, you know, I'm I love a look. I love a fashion moment. I love style, all those things. So, you know, clothing can be expensive.

So, I would encourage you, you know, look to see if there's organizations in your area. For example, Alder Health does this.

They have a clothing market where people can donate slightly used, you know, this isn't like thrift store or like heavily, heavily beaten up clothing like this, like this is nice stuff that are being donated to some of these organizations, where they have these clothing markets where if you are going through a gender identity, or you're navigating your gender identity, and you don't have the means to buy the clothes to help you kind of work through that, see if those organizations that have clothing markets, you know.

I know some different events, different nonprofits occasionally have like clothing markets as well. I think of the Rainbow Rose Center specifically held one at a conference, the Keystone Conference. And a lot of times those are, it's donated, so they're just giving it away.

So those are a way to kind of help figure yourself out without incurring cost. But, you know, from a safety and comfort, and I do this a lot, you know, I'll shop online. I have found out I specifically shop at like, one department store because I can order from there, bring it to my house, try it on, see if it works, and if I don't like it, I can then go to that department store and return it, you know.

So, whether you get free returns or, like, you know, don't spend money on the returns. You know, that's a fun way to, kind of like, work through the clothes. I, I should have kept the running list that summer of 2021, for the amount of heels that I bought on Amazon.

And would then, I mean, like, it would show up, I would try it on, and within minutes, I was like, this isn't gonna work. Let's return it. And then I'm, you know, off to UPS or wherever to send it back.

So, I would say, yeah, the important stuff at the front is, if you need, like, the help from the figure it out, but then also the fun things around the clothing. I think, I think I covered it.

Episode Closing (1:25:29)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, The Hermit in reverse can indicate two things: either one, that we're afraid to spend time alone with ourselves, or that we're afraid to look inward, or two, we've been spending too much time in isolation, and it's time to reach out.

And for today's episode, I really think it reflects the latter. I think this card is telling us maybe for too long, we've kept ourselves, our authentic selves, our identities, in isolation, for fear of being open.

And now it's time to really reach out and speak up and show our true selves to create that sense of visibility in whatever community we're in, whether we're in a large city or a small town because we need to know we're not alone.

And again, obviously, you know easier said than done, and always prioritize your safety. And again, maybe this isn't across the board.

We do really need to listen to our boundaries and what feels safe to us, but really try to find opportunities to speak up and to show your authentic self and to try to find your own community and help create the visibility you also want to seek.

Connect with Travis (1:26:20)

Rob Loveless

Travis, thank you for coming on today. This was such an important conversation.

Again, love the work you're doing with Alder Health Services and Caffeinated N' Queer having these important conversations and providing resources for audiences out there, and really emphasizing the point that, you know, they're not alone.

So, kind of wrapping up the episode, can you plug all the things and tell everyone where they can connect with you on social media?

Travis McMaster

Yeah. Well, first before I do that, Rob, thank you so much. I mean genuinely, thank you so much for allowing me here to come on.

You know, I learned about your podcast through someone else that I follow on Instagram and just fell in love with what you're doing. I thought like what you do is so different in terms of the different topics.

You know, I was blowing up your DMs a few times being like, oh, I'm listening to this episode or that episode.

So, I love the creativity that you've had in, like, your topics, in terms of the things you've been covering, from like the horror episode to the different guests that you've had to, oh, like, the the play, the episode around, like, actors and whatnot, playing gay versus, like, actually hiring people in the community.

So really excited for your new season to kick off. So again, thank you so much. Love the work that you're doing.

So, for myself, yeah, so you can follow Caffeinated N' Queer, and that's like the letter N, so Caffeinated, the letter N' Queer on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Yep, that's where those are at.

And I will say yes, the N is inspired by, like, Guns N Roses, because, you know, there's got to be a punk rock element to it, right? You can follow me at it's, it's @morethnmindless.

Yeah, more than mindless without the A. So, M-O-R-E-T-H-N-M-I-N-D-L-E-S-S, but you can find me on Instagram, Twitter, Letterboxd, if you have any interest to see what movies I love, like, or don't like. I think I'm on TikTok there.

And then for Alder, for Alder Health Services, you know, on Instagram, they're @AlderHealthServices. Specifically for Facebook, you can find them at just Alder Health.

Alder Health's website is alderhealth.org, and I think that, I think that covers it for now. So, I guess I'll say my band. If you're interested in looking up Dead Bird Pie, you can find Dead Bird Pie on Instagram.

Again, we're not currently active, but we have music on Apple Music and Spotify and all those places. So, you can hear my raspy voice do the singing our songs.

Rob Loveless

And I'll be including all this in the show notes or in the episode description, so be sure to check that all out.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (1:29:06)

Rob Loveless

For our podcast, you know the drill. You can follow the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

Any questions or feedback, feel free to email me rob@jadedgay.com. Check out the website ajadedgay.com for more information on episodes, resources, and guest information.

Also, if you're feeling generous, you can join Patreon for as little as $1 a month for ad-free episodes a day early, or doing a one-time donation on Buy Me a Coffee @ajadedgaypod.

And remember: every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.