76. Finally Free (with Seth Showalter)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Seth Showalter

As a message for those who are reading this, who are gay or may be experiencing same-sex attraction, but don't want to be gay due to religious teaching, please know this: you have worth and value exactly for who you are right now.

Episode Introduction (0:38)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a non-jaded gay because it is finally feeling like spooky season.

The weather has finally cooled off. I'm getting my pumpkin coffee. Actually, I, I've always been a Dunkin pumpkin iced coffee fan.

Normally a Starbucks fan, but when it comes to fall, I like Dunkin's fall flavors better. But I recently tried Dunkin's iced Pumpkin Spice Latte. Obsessed. I love it. Not sponsored yet.

Dunkin, if you're listening, get at me. But yeah, just feels like fall. I love the scary movies. I love the cozy weather, and I'm just, I'm loving it.

Anyway, I am very excited for today's episode. We have another special guest with us today to discuss his upcoming book that'll be out on October 17.

But before we do, you know the drill. Let's pull our tarot.

Tarot (1:33)

Rob Loveless

So, we pulled to Ten of Pentacles. And Pentacles, as you know, is tied to the element of earth. It's very grounding, stabilizing energy, and it's feminine in nature, so it's reflective, and asking us to meditate.

Now, Pentacles represents hard work, reaping the fruits of your labor, and prosperity, like literally tied to financial prosperity. But I like to think of it as emotional prosperity.

And in numerology, the number ten signifies we've completed a cycle or journey, but we add double digits together, which equals one, which is representative to a new beginning, or the individual.

So, you can see how the conclusion of one cycle yields the beginning of a new one. Anyway, when we draw this, it's representing love within the family that is most supportive of your life.

And so, we really need to focus on spending time with those people, because it will help us create a network of prosperity and achieve wealth.

And tying it back to the number ten, it's indicating that we're at the end of a successful cycle and feeling stable in our career path, finances, and home environment.

And with this new wealth headed our way, it's important to be generous and share it with others. And with that in mind, let's get into the episode.

Guest Introduction (2:41)

Rob Loveless

Now, quick trigger warning. This episode does talk about conversion therapy and religious trauma.

So, if that is a sensitive subject with you, or something that you're not comfortable with, you might want to skip this episode. So, listener discretion is advised. And let's get into it.

I am very excited to welcome our next guest. He is a licensed clinical social worker, a podcast host, and an author. Please welcome Seth Showalter.

Hi, Seth, how are you?

Seth Showalter

I'm doing well. How are you?

Rob Loveless

Doing well, thank you. Thanks for coming on the show today. I'm very excited to have you and to kick it off. You know, I like to ask all my guests, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay today?

Seth Showalter

Oh, I am definitely a jaded gay.

Rob Loveless

Jaded gay. Why?

Seth Showalter

My entire experience, I think, has made me jaded.

Rob Loveless

Oh no. Well, hopefully, the jadedness will, will chip away as time goes on there.

So, to kick off the episode today, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you identify, you know, your story leading up to how you got here today?

Seth Showalter

Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Seth. I'm actually a licensed clinical social worker. I identify as a white cisgender male who goes by he/him/his pronouns, and I identify as gay.

However, it took me a really long time to get to being okay with that identity, and that's actually what brought me onto your show.

As I've written a book about my entire experience when I actually tried to change my sexuality and the trauma that was essentially brought from that, from that experience.

Rob Loveless

And we will jump into that book in a minute because it's a very important story to tell. But before we do that, have you always been a writer?

Have you always enjoyed writing? And was this your first foray into kind of putting a book together?

Seth Showalter

Well, I've always dreamed of being a writer. In fact, my initial career goal was to become a journalist/author when I was younger.

However, this transitioned into social work later in a young adulthood. Therefore, by publishing this book, I'm actually fulfilling one of my biggest dreams.

Rob Loveless

That's awesome, and congratulations on the book. That's very exciting when you, you know, put all the time and effort into it and put it out in the universe.

It's scary but very rewarding. So hopefully, you feel very proud and excited right now about this, this new venture.

Seth Showalter

Oh, I am. I'm very, very excited. But also very nervous, because it is very vulnerable and very real and very raw. So it is, it's my entire life story. So, we're gonna see what happens.

Seth’s Religious Upbringing (5:23)

Rob Loveless

Definitely and for everybody listening out there, Seth's new book, Finally Free, is out, and it covers his story going through conversion therapy.

So, kind of kicking it off to get into that, starting at the very beginning. Can you tell us about your religious upbringing?

Seth Showalter

Yeah, absolutely. So, I was raised in a Southern Baptist family. So, I have a, was raised up in the Southern Baptist faith, and I had a very strong religious background.

In fact, I went to church multiple times a week growing up. And in fact, church became a haven for me really young. It so much so that we went to a church in a different town, and I didn't fit in where I went to school.

So, church became a, I essentially would go there to escape from the turmoil of everything that I was experiencing where I grew up because I felt rejected in my hometown.

So, church became really everything to me at a very young age. And so, I was there two, three, sometimes even four nights a week, and church was everything to me as I, as I grew up at a very young age.

Rob Loveless

You also talk about a life-altering event when you turned six that had lasting physical and psychological repercussions. Can you tell us more about that?

Seth Showalter

Yeah, so I was in a car accident and suffered a head injury that resulted in being in a coma for six days. It happened on Thanksgiving morning. I was riding with my younger, actually, my older cousin.

Obviously. I was like, six years old. He was obviously 16 at the time, and it was at my grandparents' house, and it was on a hill that had one of those blind spots at the top.

And he had just turned 16, so he waited a second too long, and when he turned, when he turned over, a car came over the top of the hill and hit me on my side of the vehicle, and that resulted in a coma.

And this car accident was tragic. That head injury resulted in some serious, serious psychological and physical repercussions.

So much so that growing up, I couldn't play physical sports, so football was out. Basketball was out once I grew up into my high school years.

And on a psychological level, I had a lot of difficulty with impulsivity, a shorter anger fuse, and I would often misread situations, and I would fill in the blanks on situations that were often wrong and just, I would not read things correctly.

And as a result of the head trauma, I had lifelong, it resulted in lifelong depression and anxiety, which kicked in at a very, very young age. And, and as you can imagine, this resulted in difficulty in relationships with others, specifically my peers.

Rob Loveless

I'm sure that's a lot to deal with at any age, but especially at such a young age for that to occur.

And I think you touched upon this earlier, but because of, you know, that impact it had on you and that you weren't able to participate in some things and felt a little separated from your peers.

Do you think that helped kind of solidify your connection with religion and the church?

Seth Showalter

Oh, absolutely, because it like the more rejected I felt by my peers, the more I turned to the church for safe haven and support. So, like the church became everything to me at a very young age.

And in fact, the church that I grew up in was a very small church, but it was primarily run by my extended family. In fact, my extended family practically ran that church.

We were the primary members of it, and it was ever, like so it was everything to me. It wasn't just church. It was like my entire family as well.

So, it became very complex and complicated, in that sense, to where family and religion were being mixed into one, which got complicated, as you can imagine.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I'm sure that kind of connects to that, you know, your church community and your community in general that you're growing up in are kind of interconnected then because of that.

Seth Showalter

Yep, 100 percent.

Rob Loveless

I can relate to that quite a bit. You know, my family we're pretty religious, and growing up back by my hometown, my mom actually, she ended up working for our church.

She ran their CCD program, Vacation Bible School. I was a sacristan. I helped teach religious ed as well. I was an aide.

And then my mom actually ended up getting a job at another church somewhere in the area, and she was, she had a lot of church jobs at different churches in the area.

We always joked she was, like, going to be the first female Bishop of our hometown, because she just, like, knew everybody within the church community there.

But going back to it, you know, growing up, for me, I never heard anything negative at church about, you know, being gay or anything. They didn't talk about it, but I didn't hear bad things about it.

But so it was, for me, it was a very comforting environment, because, you know, a lot of our friends, our family were involved in the church.

So, like, kind of, like, we just talked about your church community and your actual community kind of are interconnected.

But as you get older and, you know, you realize some more of the politics of the church, especially coming to terms with your sexuality, it can cause a little bit of a strain there, and shake the, shake the faith a bit, which we'll, we'll definitely get into as we go through the book.

Before we do, I also want to touch upon, you write about having a brother who is seven years older than you, and he's also gay.

So how did you find that out? And did both of you being gay help you bond as siblings in a Christian household?

Seth Showalter

Okay, so this is complicated because both my brother and I didn't come out until much later in our, in our like, in our adolescence. In fact, young adulthood. So we were, we were never close growing up.

So, in our Christian household, we weren't close. In fact, I would say that the car accident that I suffered and dealt with at that point created a lot of obstacles between my brother and I.

I felt that he felt jaded in a large degree because he felt like he wasn't getting the same attention and focus that I was getting from our parents, and neither of us were out at that time.

So that bond that we needed to really connect us wasn't there, and I didn't end up coming to learn about his sexuality until I had already graduated from well, actually, let me think about it.

I think I was a junior in high school. I was either, either a junior or senior in high school when I learned about his sexuality.

And if he's seven years older, I mean, he was at that point in graduate school, and I was going to a Christian summer camp for boys to, to work for the summer, and stopped at his house.

And while he was at work, as any good brother would do, I ended up snooping his computer, and in, in that covert investigation, I figured out he was, he was gay.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, what in the world? Like, all of these things started to play and, you know, all these things started to land into place, and I was still not really at a point where I was ready to identify myself, that I was gay.

So, I was actually probably more on the judgmental viewpoint than on the accepting. Hey, let's, let's come together and be, you know, brothers who are supporting each other.

I actually was probably more like, oh, I can't believe this. What's wrong with you, what's going on?

Because I was still very much in that conservative Christian indoctrination that I essentially was raised under. I mean, it took me years to come to learn about myself and be okay with it.

And, and, in fact, Brent and I, that's my brother's name. It's not in the book, but I just shared it. His name is Brent. Brent and I grew up very, very distant.

However, now that we're both out of the closet and we're both proudly gay, we're very close. And so, by coming out, we have gotten closer, but it's taken us a very long time at being able to do that.

We were each on our own unique journey.

Rob Loveless

Going off of that, can you tell us about your own coming out process?

Seth Showalter

Absolutely. So, well, it depends on which part you're talking about, because it, because for me, coming out looked different at different phases, because when I initially came out, it was under the premise that I didn't want to be gay.

Because I came out to my mom first, and it was essentially fighting hard against the message of the church. And I was continually fighting back and forth within myself.

And I would hook up and then repent, hook up and then repent. It was guilt and shame, guilt and shame, guilt and shame. And eventually, I just gave up on this in college, and I came out to my mother.

I think I was either a sophomore or junior in college. And this was after a play that I was the lead character actually is, I was playing Othello, and came out to my mother after this play and in a parking lot of a convenience store.

And she was not completely shocked or surprised, but she was not very happy. Let's just put it that way. But in order to soften that blow, I was like, I don't want to be gay.

Let's do whatever I have to to make this so that everything's okay. And at that point, I then started turning towards ministries like Campus Crusade and a church locally in my college town that would provide support to help me out.

I didn't end up coming out in a way that was fully okay with who I was until after my conversion experience, after my conversion therapy experience, and all of the trauma that happened with that, which you will read about in my book at the very end because it took me years to get to that point.

The Dangers of Conversion Therapy (16:38)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And you kind of cued that up perfectly. Let's get you know right into the book. Tell us how did the idea of going to conversion therapy come up?

Seth Showalter

Well, to be honest, I didn't have the like, I didn't have the idea conversion therapy.

All I knew was that the church was saying one thing, and I felt and knew another and I needed an answer because I was following through with what the church told me and trying to do everything that I felt like I knew was right based upon the Bible, and what was being told is the truth based upon biblical doctrine.

And so, it was really like trying to fit a peg into a square hole. It just wouldn't work. Like it did not work. No matter how hard I tried, it would not come and it would not fit.

And so, the, the way that it came together is I just came to my parents and said, you know, I don't know what to do. The church is saying one thing, and I feel this way. What is your answer?

And so, at that point, I started turning to ministries like Campus Crusade for Christ, who turned me to leaders for discipleship and spiritual guidance, who believed that they could guide me away from homosexuality.

In fact, I actually was set up with someone who had, who had claimed to have been healed by homosexuality through Campus Crusade for Christ, and met with him, said for several months.

And the whole idea was that he was going to convert me and trying to change me. And so that's how the idea came about. But it wasn't like, it wasn't like I had the idea conversion therapy.

It was just, I need the church to come up with what their answer is. And in that process, I got pointed in that direction, if that makes any sense.

Seth Showalter

It does, yeah. And for everyone listening, when Seth said discipleship, he used massive air quotes for that.

Seth Showalter

Yes, I did.

Rob Loveless

And you know, you write about the facility you went to. It was a Christian drug and alcohol rehab facility, primarily, but during your time there, they forced you to come out to others during your first week.

Why was that and what was that like?

Seth Showalter

Oh, yes. Well, so I believe that the main reason they wanted me to come out was because I was the only one there who was receiving conversion therapy.

Everyone else that was at this facility was there for substance use treatment. I was the only individual that was gay at the place. So, in order for my treatment to be established, and the type of care that I needed to be set forth among the team and among the different clients, I needed to come out.

And so, they, they kind of forced my hand in that, in that way. And there's an entire story with this because I was a little refusing to do this when I was in the program.

I was like, Nope, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it, because I was terrified of judgment. I was terrified of what other people would think I was in a facility with guys who are using drugs like cocaine, LSD, heroin, alcohol.

I didn't know what these people would think of me, and I don't try to cast those drugs in a judgmental viewpoint. I'm just saying like I didn't know what, what they would think.

I don't know their entire history, I don't know their background, I don't know where they come from. I don't know all of the things that are involved and what they really think of people in the LGBTQIA community. I just don't, I just don't know that information.

And so, coming out to these individuals is a little terrifying, especially in a facility that's so small. I mean, we only had five clients in the entire building. Like, I didn't know what, what to expect.

And so, when I started to show some resistance to coming out to the team or coming out to all the different clients in the facility, Christopher the, the husband of the CEO Catherine, essentially came into my room and was like, Seth, we need you to come out.

And in order to help facilitate this process, I am personally going to have you come out to another member of the, of the clients.

And he just randomly brought in another member that was in the facility. His name was Kevin. They brought in Kevin into my room, and was like, Kevin, Seth, needs to tell you something.

And they forced me to randomly just come out to Kevin to see what it was like, without any prep, without any warning, without any practice, they just forced my hand in that way.

Kevin had no idea what was happening. I had no idea what was happening. It felt like my boundaries were being crossed and my rights were being violated and my trust was being broken.

And that's how they started that move. And then shortly thereafter, I was expected to come out to everyone else in the facility.

Rob Loveless

Geez. And how old were you at that time?

Seth Showalter

22.

Rob Loveless

Wow. That's, I mean, I remember being that age and thinking, you know, 22, you're in your 20s. You're a grown-up.

But looking back, that is so young still, where you're figuring out who you are as a person, then being forced to define yourself so clearly for a group of strangers in an unfamiliar place, where, like you said, it's a small group of people.

It's not like you're, you know, a small fish in a big pond. There's everyone there who knows you. That's, that's very traumatic.

Seth Showalter

Yeah, and it's been, I spent a lot of time processing that day in my journal.

Now granted in the book, that if you end up purchasing my book, I only have a short snippet of it in the book, but like, the actual journal goes in-depth, because I am feeling a very kind of way, a very certain kind of way, when I go through that experience.

Because I was like, I cannot believe that they just did this to me, and I don't know what to think. So, yeah, it was difficult.

Rob Loveless

So how did the program work, and what was their quote-unquote conversion process?

Seth Showalter

Well, that's the interesting part in all of this. And I critique it throughout the entire book because I'm not completely convinced they knew what they were doing in regards to the conversion therapy.

They called it reparative therapy. I want to be very clear; I changed the name to conversion because I don't view it as reparative. I, this is not at all reparative. This is traumatic.

However, they called it reparative therapy. Their entire premise was over enmeshed mother, emotionally distant father. I'm sure most of us have heard of that entire perspective.

And their solution was pray the gay away. Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray with an analyzation of essentially my experience of the sights, smells, and places of the gay community, and then essentially brainwashing that as much as they possibly can.

Now, in their vernacular, they would call it the gay lifestyle. I cringe when I hear that. I think most of us in the gay community do.

However, that's how they would classify it, of course, because these are, you know, the Christian community and how they're perpetuating their entire perspective upon us, right?

But I'm not convinced they actually knew what they were doing. They really focused on the substance use treatment more than they did on anything else.

They, they sprinkled in the conversion therapy every now and then, enough to keep me feeling like I was getting treatment, but not enough to actually make any change.

So, the idea was, like, pray the gay away, like, put everything on God and just trust that he's going to do something miraculous.

That's really what it came down to with these random meetings with Catherine, the CEO of the facility, who would have me read through this textbook called Helping People Step Away or Step Out of Homosexuality.

So, I did go through a workbook by Exodus International. And then they also have had me meet with another lady by the name of Jackie. She was essentially a spiritual guru and hosted her own ministry called the Inner Hearts Ministry, or something like that.

It's hard. I tried to like, I've tried to forget some of, like, what the ministries were called, but like, you know.

She did this whole thing where you walked, she had you bring up bad memories, or, like, things that were really traumatic in your past, and then think of or visualize Jesus in that memory, and then have like Jesus heal you in a way as you visualize Jesus in that memory.

And so, they tried to do a lot of that type of work around my experience with the, around my experience around the gay experience.

Rob Loveless

I mean, you just told that one story, but throughout the book, you write some other questionable practices that they had there. And...

Seth Showalter

Oh yes.

Rob Loveless

Yeah. One that really stood out to me was a session when one quote-unquote patient had a seizure and they didn't immediately call 9-1-1. Can you tell us more about that?

Seth Showalter

Yes, I can. So, this is a Jackie session. So, I just mentioned Jackie, right? And the fact that she goes into these spiritual sessions.

And there was this one day she was, she came to the facility, and she was meeting with us, and she was working with another client by the name of Marvin.

And she wanted Marvin to pinpoint a painful or hurtful experience and have it visualize a specific time, place, or people present in that memory, and then picture Jesus in that, in that memory.

So, she was working with Marvin around this but Marvin was having difficulty identifying a painful memory, and so Marvin couldn't recall any.

And as she was working with him on this, another client by the name of Hunter started acting kind of weird. And when I say weird, what I mean is, people were praying.

People had their eyes closed, but Hunter didn't. And he was, like, giving weird looks, and like was contorting his hands, and like, just doing some, some things that were not, not to expected, okay?

And then Hunter falls out of his chair and starts convulsing on the floor. And now I would think, as someone with epilepsy myself, that when someone starts seizing, what do you do? You call 9-1-1.

However, that's not what this facility did. Rather what they did is they jumped onto the ground with him, and they started praying the blood of Jesus over him, believing that he had been possessed by a demon rather than having a seizure.

And they did this for almost five to 10 minutes before they eventually decided to call 9-1-1. And now as a client, I will confess. So, if you do read the book like I will confess.

Now I'm a client. I'm not staff, right? And I'm, I'm being brainwashed in this entire experience. So yes, I will admit I did think he was possessed by a demon, and I did reach out my hands, and I did speak in tongues.

I did do that. I own it. I'm owning that. But I was not staff. I was not being paid to protect people. I was being, I was paying to be treated.

So, a totally different experience, but it was, it was very disturbing, especially as someone who has epilepsy myself.

If they would have of not called 9-1-1, and instead believed that I was being possessed by a demon, I would be a little bit perturbed, because that could result in serious brain issues.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I know you mentioned there Jackie and you previously mentioned Catherine and Christopher. Can you tell us about what were your experiences like with other staff members?

Seth Showalter

Yeah, so let's, let's go through those. I'm gonna, there are several staff members I want to point out. In fact, there's four. Specifically, the first one is Catherine.

And Catherine, I had really weird emotions with because she's the CEO. She's the owner of the facility, and she honestly was a unique individual, and she communicated in a way that spoke directly to your soul. All right?

I, I don't know how else to describe this. She had one of those like warm, tender, natured spirits. So, I had an affinity for her. She presented deeply knowledgeable and, and she hyper spiritualized everything.

And I felt like I could immediately trust her because of the warmth and the wisdom that she exuded, the spiritual knowledge she seemed to possess.

Like, in a way, I felt like she had magical powers and miraculous things just happened around her.

However, she didn't always do what I wanted her to do, and she, she was kind of manipulative a lot throughout the book.

And if you do read my book, I would love to hear your thoughts on it. Can I ask you, what did you think of Catherine?

Rob Loveless

That's kind of tricky to say, because knowing that it was set with reparative therapy in mind, I definitely had a skewed perspective. So, I kind of just viewed all the staff members as evil, a little bit.

Seth Showalter

Fair enough.

Rob Loveless

I don't know if this makes sense. Did you ever read the book Holes?

Seth Showalter

Oh yeah, of course.

Rob Loveless

Yeah. Just like, you know how, like, all the staff members there seem like nice enough to their faces, but are like, manipulative and like hiding things from them.

And then there's, like, some, like, yeah, bullying stuff going on. That's kind of the vibe I was getting when I read about the staff members that you experienced through the program.

Seth Showalter

Yeah. And so, like, this is the whole thing. Like, I, I really liked Catherine when I was in the program, all right, but like, after I left the program, some traumatic stuff happened in my life, and I did call her.

I may remain contact, and this is in the book, like I did call her at a moment, in which case, I was struggling. I was actually in Key West, having a good time at an all, you know, clothing-optional gay resort. I needed to get away.

So, you know, I needed, you know, we all have, we all have our moments, right? So, I called her after a really traumatic experience, and I was in Key West to get away from everything and talk to her.

And like the hollow, non-caring voice really came through, and it was like, I really know where you stand. Like, for all of the, the love, all of the care, all of the things that you perpetuated and tried to show of how you loved me when I was in the program, it's pretty clear if I choose this lifestyle.

Oh, I shouldn't say lifestyle. You know what I mean. If I choose to be gay, this is what it means. You don't give a crap about me, like this is where you really stand.

And her husband, Christopher, who's also in the book, I viewed as a loose cannon. This guy was ready to blow at any moment.

There were things I really looked up to him about, and I felt like I could trust him a lot of the time. But then there were times like I totally could not.

Like, for example, the moment he had me come out to Kevin in my room, like, without any warning. Like, WTF, man. Like, what is that? What are you doing? He just didn't.

He seemed to, like, sway with the wind and just do things that were often questionable and just not okay. And then there's Jackie, as I was mentioning a few minutes ago.

People I've talked to who've read my book ahead of time, have really remarked that they felt like Jackie was wacky, and I feel like that's a little judgmental, but if you read my book, you'll understand.

She, she comes from a very charismatic background, and the practices that she used were a little bit out there. Having said that, I don't think I ever spoke disrespectfully of her when I was in the program, even in the book.

All right, I don't think I disagreed with like her as a person. I just really disagree with her methods as a licensed clinical social worker now and therapist.

I'm like, I look at what she was doing and how she was doing it, and I'm like, how can you ethically do that and call yourself help? Like and say that you're helping people?

Like, I don't, I don't understand. It doesn't make sense. Help this makes sense. It doesn't work. And then the last person I want to mention is Gavin.

Gavin was just merely a staff member there at the facility, and I think he was an asshole. Sorry for swearing on your podcast, but I think he was a, he was a jerk.

He came across as extremely judgmental, and I felt like I always needed to be guarded around him. He said things that were extremely mean and hurtful, and I felt like he was hiding more things about himself than he really was in helping anyone else.

Rob Loveless

You also write about how you swung back and forth with the program, being against it one day and hopeful that it would work the next day. Why was that?

Seth Showalter

Well, I mean, I think it's just part of, I think it's just part of the the fight within myself and my faith. I was torn in two opposite directions.

What I, what I knew to be true about my real identity and what the church was telling me were two very opposite things, and so I was in this constant turmoil within myself between what the Bible said and what I knew about who I really was.

And not only that, I was in a program that thoroughly believed that the Bible was correct and that who I really was was not correct.

So, if I ever wanted to get out of that program, I had to believe the program. So I was, it was this constant fight, and I don't think there was any way of ever getting out of that.

Rob Loveless

And then, um, on day 64, so after over two months being in that program, your parents visited you for the first time. What was that like?

Seth Showalter

Well, emotional, weird, and vulnerable. That's really all, I mean to highlight that it was emotional, weird, and vulnerable. My parents came and it was really great to see them.

But some of the interactions by like, how Catherine treated us was super interesting. Catherine, like, shushed us at times, even when we were having our family sessions, which I thought was interesting.

So, it, it was, it was intriguing. And she also really cornered my dad on a few things, which was, like, really encouraging as the client, but then also like, what are you doing?

I don't understand the point of this. So, it was just really awkward overall. To put it simple.

Rob Loveless

It sounds like it. And then you also go on to write that at the end of your time, there, you left with increased feelings of guilt and shame, and you felt the program did more harm than good.

Tell us about that.

Seth Showalter

Yeah. So, in order to leave the program, and I mentioned this a few minutes ago, but I had to agree with the program.

So, there was no way I was going to leave there being like, Yeah, I'm gay and I'm okay. There was no way that was going to happen.

So, in fact, they even wanted to keep me there longer, with me agreeing with all of their stipulations.

So, in order to leave, I was required to commit to five years of celibacy, and I knew that I could not carry that out.

So, but if I didn't agree to that five years of celibacy, they would never have recommended to my parents that I leave.

And so, there's continue, this perpetuated this constant feeling of guilt and shame because I knew that I couldn't uphold the very thing that this program was requiring.

Recovering from Conversion Therapy (39:36)

Rob Loveless

After going through all of that, how did you eventually come to terms with your sexuality, living openly as a gay man?

Seth Showalter

It's been a long, long journey, and I know in my heart of hearts, that I am perfectly acceptable for who I am, and if a God does exist, that he accepts me for who I am.

And the way that I came to that conclusion was by reaching all of my ends, like by realizing the damage of conversion therapy. If conversion therapy would have worked, it would have worked with me.

I like, I'm just being forthcoming, like there's no like, I did everything. I prayed the prayers, I walked the walk, I talked the talk, I did everything the church required, and it still didn't do anything.

So, I did everything that I possibly could.

Rob Loveless

I can relate to that a lot too, because, you know, growing up when you find this out about yourself and you fear that you might be gay, the prayers and for myself thinking like, you know, not Am I gay?

It's, I can't be gay. Like my family's religious, I go to church like, and it's one of those things, like, if it is a bad thing, then why?

Why is it happening to somebody who's devout, who prays, who tries to live according to what their religion says, like, why would it be the case?

So, I think you touched upon this in your previous answer. But are you still religious today? And if so, how do you balance your faith and your sexuality?

Seth Showalter

That's a great question, and it's I wish I had a wonderful, wonderful, clear-cut answer on that, but I don't. All I can tell you is I am deconstructing and I do not hold to a lot of the same beliefs.

So, I would still call myself a Christian quote unquote. Well, no, I take that back. I don't know. I don't call myself a Christian.

I call myself a Christ follower, but I am not a Christian in that I do not adhere to the church. So let me be very, very clear, I follow Christ. I do not follow the church. Big difference.

But, and, and not only that, like I've deconstructed things around like the Bible. I've deconstructed things around hell. I've deconstructed things around my understanding of sin. I've deconstructed things around my understanding of shame and guilt and what God really thinks about where we stand in regards to that.

So, I, I've deconstructed a lot, but I still would call myself a Christ follower.

Rob Loveless

And you end the book with a statement to the church saying that the reason why conversion therapy wasn't successful was because there wasn't a problem to fix in the first place. So, tell us more about that.

Seth Showalter

Yeah. So, because I know in my heart of hearts that I'm perfectly acceptable for who I am, and like I mentioned before, this has been a long, long process.

I mean, it took me years to eventually come out officially and be okay in my own skin. Like, I don't think I came out of the closet. Well, actually, I didn't come out of the closet officially.

Like, officially, officially, like, on Facebook and all of that jazz, until the day gay marriage was, uh, approved, confirmed, and made legal in the United States in 2015.

But like, even after doing that, I still fought for years around self-hatred, and if I'm honest, I still struggle given some of that closeness to Christianity. I, it's still a, it's still a struggle with me.

But what I do know at the end of this story is that if a god exists, he would much rather I be alive than no longer here. And that God, if he does exist, cares about our future and cares about our happiness, and he does not want us to suffer.

And primarily what the LGBTQIA community has been doing for the longest time is we've been suffering.

We have been suffering under the hands of a tyrannical religion that has been hurting so many of us for so long.

And what we need to recognize and what we need to acknowledge is that we are accepted and we are loved exactly for who we are.

Rob Loveless

1000%. I don't think I could have said it better.

Finally Free (44:28)

Rob Loveless

You know, obviously, there was a lot to unpack. You said you've done the work since then and deconstructing.

So how did you feel throughout writing this book? How did you feel when you finished writing it? And did you learn anything about yourself through writing it?

Seth Showalter

The power of vulnerability and the power of lived experience. I'll go ahead and just share this. I have wanted to write this book for 10 years.

That journal that is mentioned, I mean, the journal that's used in the, in the book itself was originally 300 pages long.

And when I originally finished this book in its first format, it had the full journal entries because it took, I wanted everything included, but it took me 10 years to finally get to the point that I could actually read these journal entries in, in, in whole because it was so traumatic and because it was so difficult.

And so, what I've learned is that there is a power in actually connecting with our trauma and being okay with that trauma and allowing that trauma to help others.

And in fact, as a therapist now, I have found that by connecting with this trauma and allowing it to no longer be something that I hold in the dark, but something that I'm bringing out into the light, it's allowing me to not only be in better connection with myself, but it's enabling me to be in better connection with my clients in a more meaningful and impactful way.

Seth Showalter

And what do you hope readers get from Finally Free?

Seth Showalter

One, that it's okay to be gay. And two, the trauma of conversion therapy and the damage that can that's being done by these types of methods. And three, a call out to the church.

I hope that the church gets put in its place and that people in the church can understand the rhetoric and the nature of what their beliefs are actually doing and the real-life impact that it's having on people and has had on people in our community, and continues to have on people in our community because I truly don't think that Christians get it.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And then shifting it a little bit, tell us more about your podcast.

Seth Showalter

Well, so yeah, I do have a podcast. It's called Mental Health Uncovered, and I have a website there. It's called mentalhealthuncovered.com.

The podcast has been on hold since I started working on the book and everything. So honestly, I'm going to be completely forthcoming. There's not been an episode out for a hot minute, like almost a year.

However, once the book is out and I'm done marketing and I'm done doing all of those things, the podcast will be back up and going.

So, the show is really geared towards giving people a voice around their mental health struggles.

I don't come in there with providing necessarily mental health guidance, but rather allowing people to share their own story and allowing that to speak for itself, because I believe that people's stories hold so much weight and hold so much power.

And so really, it's a place to come and hear about people's mental health struggles and journeys.

Rob Loveless

I love that. And I think it's so great that you do that, because sometimes half the battle is just being able to voice what you're feeling and having somebody to listen to that, you know?

Sometimes friends and family, they're a little too, I don't want to say biased, but you know what I mean? Like, they're not removed from the situation, so they may have a certain opinion.

And sometimes it's nice to just have that, you know, third party who doesn't have a stake in this and is just there to listen.

Episode Closing (48:18)

Rob Loveless

And between, you know, telling your story through your book, Finally Free through letting others tell their story through your podcast, I think it really ties back to our tarot card for today, the Ten of Pentacles, which is really about, you know, when we get that card, we're receiving the love from our family.

And obviously, family can be a loaded term, so it could be your supportive or biological family, but really making sure that you're surrounding yourself with those people who fully support you, to build that network of emotional prosperity.

So, then you can also give back to others, and I think that's something you're doing through both your book and your podcast.

You're giving, you're being vulnerable to share your experiences, to help protect others from going through that, and then also through your podcast, allowing others to voice what they're going through.

So, I think you and the work you're doing perfectly embodies that card.

Seth Showalter

Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Rob Loveless

Of course. Thank you.

Excerpt from Finally Free (49:06)

Rob Loveless

And would you mind reading us an excerpt from your book?

Seth Showalter

Yes. And I debated really long and hard on what I actually wanted to read because it's hard.

With my book, it's hard to pick a text because it's either like, do you want the trauma, or do you want the like uplifting, good stuff?

And so, I'm picking something from the epilogue, and I'm doing this on an intention, because I want you to see that through the trauma, there's actually some good and I want to show you that there's some hope.

So, here's an excerpt from the epilogue of Finally Free: A Surrender to Authenticity:

"As a message for those who are reading this, who are gay or may be experiencing same-sex attraction but don't want to be gay due to religious teaching, please know this: you have worth and value exactly for who you are right now.

I can sit here and try to encourage you against trying to change your sexuality, but in the end, it's your decision to make. No one can make that decision for you. Not your family, not your friends, not your church. Having said that, if there's anything I've learned through my journey, it's that surrender is required.

Mine was not the surrender I had been expecting or had handed down to me as the answer. Rather, the surrender required was a surrender to acceptance. Acceptance that I'm gay and it's okay. Accepting that being gay is okay with my God and that He loves and accepts me exactly for who I am.

There was no fault in my design. My struggle did not originate with the lack of surrender to God. It was a lack of surrender to authenticity. And since I've surrendered to authenticity, I am finally free. My once fractured self is now whole again."

Rob Loveless

That was an excerpt from Finally Free by Seth Showalter.

Connect with Seth (51:17)

Rob Loveless

Seth, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Please tell our listeners where everybody can find your book, connect with you, find the podcast, all the things.

Seth Showalter

Yes, you can find out my, you can find my book on Amazon. It is entitled Finally Free: A Surrender to Authenticity, written by Seth Showalter.

And you can find out more about me and the book at my website sethshowalter.com. And at that website, you can access all of my socials, all of my, all of my things.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Thanks, Seth. And all that will be in the episode description, so be sure to check that out.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (51:51)

Rob Loveless

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And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.