64. 40 Single Gay (with Jonathan Lee)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Rob Loveless 

Your boyfriend broke up with you, saying you were only 70% of what he wanted. And he said that to you while you were having sex?

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah. As you can imagine, that was a bit of a kind of uh head fuck.

Episode Introduction (0:33)

Rob Loveless 

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay.

I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay because I think the conservatives are coming for me. So, I don't know.

The past few weeks, I've started getting nasty comments on the videos I've been posting on YouTube and TikTok.

It started off with the Protect LGBTQ+ Homeless Youth episode. Specifically, there was one video I posted to YouTube, and pretty much everything that I post on TikTok gets posted to YouTube short.

And I posted something about, you know, this number of LGBTQ+ youth reported being abandoned by caregivers or parents or something like that.

I can't remember the specifics, but I got a comment on that saying, I'm proud of those parents. And then there's just some other stuff that trickled in there.

And then some rando who is part of the LGBTQ+ community, actually slid into my personal DMs on Instagram, gave me, like, a really nasty message, chewing me out. And it just wasn't the nicest.

And my whole thoughts on this are, has anyone ever changed someone's opinion by trolling them with a nasty comment? Like I don't think they have.

And I really don't get it because I mean, I don't have Facebook, I don't have Twitter. I just do Instagram and TikTok. And TikTok is just for the podcast. I don't even use it personally.

But, like, I've never, if I see things on there that I don't agree with, I just go about my day because what's the point of confronting somebody on that on social media?

Like, one, do you think they're going to read it? Two, if they do, do you think it's going to be an intellectual, deep debate/ conversation?

No, it's gonna be just like, you know, throwing shit left and right, which is not okay. And even people in my personal life, I know, do that.

Like, they'll be like, oh, I was on Facebook and saw this, and started a Facebook fight with somebody. Like, why do you think that is a good thing?

Save the drama for Real Housewives, we don't need to be real housewives in our everyday lives, you know? Like, I don't, I just don't get it. So, it's a little annoying when I see those things.

And just, you know, for anybody out there who's listening to this and doesn't agree with what I say on here, I mean, you're allowed to not agree because I have my own opinion, and I'm sure you have yours.

But if you don't agree, just quietly unsubscribe and go about your day and live your best life. It's that, it's that easy. It's that easy.

And if you do come for me with a nasty comment or nasty DM, just know it's going to be deleted and blocked because I just don't have the energy to deal with that.

I don't want to, and I'm not going to. So glad we got that established.

40 Single Gay (2:40)

Rob Loveless 

Anyway, stepping down off my soapbox, let's move on with the episode. I am really excited today because we have a very special guest, a fellow author in the house.

Not literally, we're recording virtually. But I'm very excited for today's guest. Recently released a book on his own journeys as a gay man, which I read. Loved it, lots of great points in there, things that I resonated with.

And I'm really excited to bring him on today to talk through it, learn a little bit more about his story, his book, and he's actually going to read an excerpt for us too.

So, lots of good stuff. But before we do you know the drill, let's pull the tarot.

Tarot (3:13)

Rob Loveless 

So, the card for this episode is the Two of Pentacles in reverse. And Pentacles, it's part of the Minor Arcana, and it's tied to the element of earth.

So, it's very grounding and nurturing, and it's feminine energy. So, it's asking us to be reflective and to meditate.

And in numerology, the number two is representative of duality, partnership, choice, and that can even tie to themes of harmony and balance.

But when we draw this card in reverse, it's signaling that we may be experiencing some tension, or there may even be an element of irresponsibility in our lives.

So, this tension we're experiencing, whether financially, spiritually, romantically, whatever it may be, it's leaving us feeling unbalanced and destabilized.

And this tension can be a result of us not being responsible with our choices.

You know, let's say we're experiencing financial tension, and maybe that's the result of us spending frivolously and not saving up like we should.

And I'm using that example because Pentacles, it's typically tied to, like, literally financial prosperity. But I like to shift it from that literal sense to more of, like, an emotional prosperity standpoint.

So, this card is also signaling that we might be over-committing and spreading ourselves too thin, instead of just dedicating our energy and focusing on one specific area of our lives.

Or we may even be over-investing in one area of our lives at the expense of others.

So regardless of what the situation is, we need to remember that while we may be feeling unbalanced right now in this moment, these challenges are only temporary, and we can easily restore our balance by reflecting inwards and making those responsible decisions for what we need to get back on track.

So, we need to reflect and reassess where we should be dedicating our time and energy and get ready to take inspired actions to get us to a more stable, balanced place.

Guest Introduction (4:51)

Rob Loveless 

So, with that in mind, let's turn our attention to today's guest.

You may have heard of 30, flirty, and thriving, but have you ever heard of 40, single, gay? Well, you're about to.

Please welcome today's guest, Jonathan Lee. Hi, Jonathan. Thanks for joining us today.

Jonathan Lee 

Thank you. Really good to be here, Rob.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah, very excited to have you on. I loved the book, which we will get to in a minute. Don't want to jump ahead of myself. So, before we start off, can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself, how you identify, your pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah. So, he/him. Like you say, I'm Jonathan Lee. I'm writer of the book 40 Single Gay and I live down in Cornwall in England. And yeah, really excited to be here.

Rob Loveless 

Awesome. And have you always been a writer?

Jonathan Lee 

No, to be honest, I don't know if I would actually identify as a writer. This is my first book, and I'm not really part of that kind of literary world.

I, it's probably a real accomplishment just to write that book, actually because, well, I've read about 10 books in total, and I think two of those were audio, so I don't even know if they count.

So, it's a, and I'm one of these people where I'm more about the really good multitasker. I love doing lots of different things, and actually really struggle on that fine detail.

But I wrote this book as therapy, not with the intention of publishing it. And it was, yeah, it just kind of came from there really.

Rob Loveless 

I love that. I mean, I write too, and I found it's been a huge way to kind of get just, like, you know, emotional release from something, whether it's even just journaling or writing something fictional.

Not, I know this isn't fiction, but just in general, you know?

Writing, it kind of gets all the thoughts, like, when I feel like I have too many thoughts racing in my head, I just like to write it out, whether it's a journal or turning it into fiction because it just helps, like, get it out in a way that I feel like even talking about sometimes doesn't help me get it out.

The Break Up (6:38)

Rob Loveless

So, and we definitely, you know, I think there was a lot that you released within the book, which is really interesting. So that's a great segue into this. Let's talk about 40 Single Gay.

So, this is an autobiography of your 40th year, and just a week prior before you turned 40, your boyfriend broke up with you, saying you were only 70% of what he wanted.

And he said that to you while you were having sex?

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah. As you can imagine, that was a bit of a kind of head fuck. Yeah, approaching 40 is that kind of milestone in your life anyway. And I was with someone.

We were only together two years, but I kind of thought he was the one. And despite some of the pitfalls in our relationship, I'd kind of come to terms with with kind of what we had, and I thought that was it.

So, it was a yeah. It really knocked me to hear that I wasn't enough for him and that he wasn't happy, and yeah.

And you know, from there, I kind of started writing about that and reflecting on our past relationships to try and work out where it all went wrong, as well as then, kind of the book then moves on to talk about the, well, first of all, some of the cliched experiences I kind of went through.

And I think what most, what a lot of people go through when they break up, in terms of trying to, you know, improve my image.

There's also very much an obsessional bit around it where I, and I know you'll, you'll probably go on to ask me this in a minute, where I kind of create a fake profile to stalk him.

So not my, my proudest moment. And then me moving on from that in terms of actually a going on the dating scene and some of those kind of hookups I experienced, and, yeah, some situations that I just kind of found myself in, all quite comical, and then actually kind of realizing what is the important thing is in life, and you know, and the fact that you don't need the love of another person to be able to love yourself.

Rob Loveless

And I mean, we're gonna get into it definitely.

But I really did see that progression throughout the book of kind of going through the stages because, I feel, I know you said you were only together two years, but I feel, you know, regardless of the length of time you're with somebody, if there's feelings there, there's feelings there.

And when it doesn't work out, there's, you know, a need to know for answers, so to speak.

And I think regardless of the circumstances, that is kind of the what you write is, like, kind of the standard, you know, the standard trajectory of, kind of going through the stages of the breakup, you know?

And trying to find yourself afterwards and figure out, and, you know, you talk about, you go on the apps for a little bit, and then, you know, you try dating for a little bit, and just kind of figuring out, like, where do I go from now?

What feels right in this moment?

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, no, definitely. I think you could look at the kind of cycles of grief, and you can kind of plot those kind of almost chapter by chapter, in terms of the different stages I went through.

But I think I wasn't just grieving him. I prior to that, I'd had a 15-year relationship, and then went straight into another year relationship, and then very quickly, kind of met Adam, and we were together for two years.

And I think some of that, so I basically, you know, kind of been with someone most of my adult life. And I think, yeah, it was grief from those previous relationships which I hadn't quite processed.

And, you know, and instead of doing the sensible thing and kind of taking time out for me, I just went straight into another relationship, into another one.

And yeah, so I think all of that came together, and that's kind of what I felt at that moment.

Rob Loveless 

Definitely, I think that's really relatable. And you know, going to the book, you went on to write about how you and your ex, Adam, had broken up and gotten back together several times before, and that you suspected he was cheating on you during some of the relationship.

And then there is a scene specifically where you saw he had Grindr on his phone while you two were together. And when you confronted him about this, he claimed he just used it to chat with guys and schedule a hook-up, but then he blocked them.

Maybe kind of as like a form of validation or something. And while you said you broke up, you write that you two were always pulled back together like a magnet.

So why do you think that was?

Jonathan Lee 

I think if you were to ask me that in that moment, I would have said because we loved each other and, you know, and what relationship we've carved out.

It may not have been perfect, but it was kind of good enough. And we kind of, what we had, you know, was kind of genuine.

I think two years on, and when I reflect back, I think deep down, I probably feared being on my own, and I think yeah, being in a relationship, albeit not perfect, and, you know, and have those flaws for me at that time was better than not. Yeah.

Rob Loveless 

It's kind of one of the things that I think as you go through, at least for me too, when I've gone through, I've kind of realized that now I'm at a point, like, where I think sometimes it feels better to be lonely and single than to be in a relationship with somebody who may not be the right fit because sometimes that's even, you feel even lonelier when you're with somebody who, you know, is not the right person, or not giving you, you know, what you need, or it's just not the right whatever.

But I think that's something that in the past, I've definitely grappled with, where it's, you know, I've gone from dating scenario to dating scenario, trying to find that person because trying to maybe fill a sense of loneliness or something like that.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, and absolutely. And thankfully, I think I've moved on, and I've had, you know, kind of time as a single person.

And actually, I would say I'm not lonely, and I think that's through kind of really reflecting on what's important to me and what do I need in life.

And that's not that validation from another person, but it's actually having kind of, like, really good friends and kind of, you know, experiences, either, you know, with someone or not. Yeah.

Getting Back on Dating Apps (12:28)

Rob Loveless 

Kind of going back to, I know you talked about this already, once you had gone through the breakup, you got on Grindr to and to kind of see, you know, what he was up to, if he was seeing somebody else.

I really like kind of the illustration you put together of seeing his profile move around the grids and thinking, oh, is he hanging out with this person or this person?

And you described it as kind of being a torture you were inflicting upon yourself, watching his profile move around as you were, as he was potentially seeing other guys.

So, can you tell us a little, a little bit more about that experience?

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, well, I've got two really. So, one pre-breakup, and the second kind of post-breakup.

So, as you kind of referred to earlier, whilst we were together, I did, I found out that he, you know, that he was cheating on me. He was sleeping one day, one morning, and left his phone out, you know, kind of like on the side.

And I didn't mean to purposely kind of seek out to read it, but I just literally walked past and saw a message pop up, and it was something along the lines of, be really good to meet up, you know, something, you know.

So, I kind of shared that with him, and he kind of downplayed it. Didn't really think anything of it.

And then about a week later, we were going to the cinema, and he he couldn't find the cinema trick tickets that he had on an app on the phone.

And as he was going through settings, I noticed kind of Grindr there.

And again, didn't say anything straight away, and then later, kind of confronted him about it, and and, yeah, he said his the reason why he goes on it is purely just to talk to guys, and then he'll block them at point of meeting.

And that's his way of, kind of feeling in control.

And I believed that, or to a little or to a large kind of degree, I suppose there was always a niggling part in my mind, kind of, you know, and then I thought, actually, I'm just going to, kind of, I guess, I was looking for proof that what he was saying was kind of right.

So, the next day, and, you know, slightly ashamed of this because, you know, because it doesn't paint me in great light, but I did, kind of think I wonder if I can kind of, you know, unlock your phone, if I wonder if I can guess your password.

And straight away, I kind of guessed it. It was his date of birth. They kind of hardly be enigma.

And from there, I could see that he had numerous messages from guys where he had kind of slept with people. And rather than confront him about it, I just thought, well, this is our relationship now.

We're kind of, yeah, this is, you know, we'll see other people. So over time, I started to do the same.

So, what's to the rare times when he wasn't at my flat, I would be on Grindr myself as a blank profile, and yeah, and I would meet up with guys and have sex. And it wasn't sex I particularly wanted or needed.

It was just I felt like I should be getting it because I knew that he was doing the same. So quite kind of messed up, really, I suppose.

So, we've got, I talk about that in terms of relationship to Grindr quite a lot within the book.

So, I've got that experience of whilst we were together, and then when we did break up, a couple of days later, I was quite curious as to kind of to think, actually, I wonder if you're already kind of on there, and if you've kind of moved on.

And so, I created another blank profile and went online, and straight away saw him. And rather than just let that go, I created, I added to my profile.

I kind of screenshotted, I think it was an ASOS model or something like that, and kind of, you know, chosen some words and kind of targeted it to who I knew he would kind of, kind of like, and I chatted to him because I was really curious as to what he was going to be saying and doing and, you know, and that that's the bit that really was torture.

Do you know what I mean?

Because, you know, I'm asking him about his ex, and that's me, you know, and then he's telling me about how I'm not good enough, and how the sex wasn't great and all of that, and, you know?

And yeah, I kind of wanted to challenge him, but I couldn't. And yeah, there's the dialog in the book runs. So, you've got Adam, who's who's my ex.

So, you've got his kind of messages, chatting to Jamie, who's the fake profile name.

And then you've got my kind of internal dialog as well, running, running along through that, like, you know, just, you know, kill me now. And, you know, kind of, yeah. So, so that's a part of it, yeah.

Rob Loveless 

Again, going back to those Grindr conversations you had with both Adam and just other people on there, I think it's very, I think people can relate to it, you know, going on there, it seems like the same conversations that people typically have on the app, like the Hey, looking.

Adding in your own, like, internal thoughts as you're going through really was like a nice little flavor of personality. So, it was really funny. I liked that.

And one part that I thought, you know, really kind of made me laugh was you had, with your fake profile and talking to Adam, you actually scheduled a hook up with him, but gave him, gave him someone else's address to go to.

Jonathan Lee 

I did. Again, not my finest hour. And then I and then I kind of, yeah, deleted it after that. Actually, no, I didn't. I created one further.

But yeah, I guess I was pissed off, and still kind of angry. It was, you know, like less than a week, and there he was hooking up with other guys, which he can do. Do you know what I mean?

We had broken up by then, but obviously, the rational Jonathan kind of didn't see it like that. And yeah, I did send him to a random address and took pleasure out of the idea of him knocking on the door.

Do you know, I mean, thinking he was going to be greeted by, you know, this big, hunky kind of bloke, and, and I don't know who would have answered the door to him, to be honest.

So yeah, but yeah, not proud of it.

Rob Loveless

Yeah. I mean, I understand, but I also think too it would be hurtful, just because it was so fresh that the breakup had happened, and to kind of, you know, for my thoughts are, when a breakup happens, that whatever, whoever initiates it, like, there's at least, you think there would be some time there to kind of grieve, or kind of realign, of what you want, what, where you're going, all these things.

So, to see that, I mean, I would be hurt too. I don't know if I would do that, but I would be hurt, yeah, after that length of time, was something that felt so serious to see somebody just, you know, putting themselves back out there so quickly as if they didn't have any time to grieve because, again, regardless of who initiates, I think there's still a grieving process on both ends of a breakup.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, no, absolutely. And yeah, at the time, that's how I thought.

I mean, in hindsight, and kind of, you know, again, two years on, I think that might have been his way of dealing with the relationship ending as well, you know, in terms of having not to think about it, and to kind of go into another relationship, which he did quite quickly.

And, you know, that's fine, each to their own, but yeah, that still doesn't, you know, kind of take away how I was feeling at the time. Yeah.

Self-Care or Escapism? (19:34)

Rob Loveless 

And then turning back to yourself, you know, over the course of, I think it was about three months after the breakup first occurred, you tried making some self-care changes, just to kind of change things up.

So, you write about dyeing your hair yourself, you did some retail therapy, and got some touch-ups with filler and veneers.

And then following that, you felt ready to put yourself out there again. So how did you feel something?

How did you, how did you know you're ready to put yourself out there again at that time?

Jonathan Lee 

I probably wasn't, and I probably put myself out that too soon, to be honest. In terms of the self-care or the kind of, you know, I probably focused on the exterior first, and again, that's what I shouldn't have done, you know, I later go into counseling and kind of have more focus on meaningful activities, rather than, you know, getting Botox and going out and getting a shag, which I kind of eventually did, but, yeah.

But I do get, you know, it's kind of cliched experiences which I kind of went through. So, yeah, I got my hair done, and it was completely disastrous.

I thought I would go for, like, a silver gray, but I had to bleach it blonde first.

And having dark hair, I kind of left it on a lot longer than I needed to, and then kind of put another one on after that because it didn't seem to take and, in the end, I was kind of, yeah, it was like one of the Simpsons.

I was like, straw, yellow my hair. And then, like you say, the veneers, which I got Botox filler, all trying to change the exterior where really the focus should be what's going on inside.

Rob Loveless 

Definitely. And again, I think that's very relatable.

And, you know, I think when something big like that happens, you kind of need to do, you feel like you need to do some kind of big shift exterior wise, to kind of, you know, commemorate, like, the end of a chapter, or the start of something new.

I mean, when I moved, I just moved a couple months ago to Philadelphia, and when I first moved here, I just, I shaved my head, did a crew cut, and shaved my beard because I'm, like, just, you know, new hair, new city, all that.

And going through a break of a few years back, this is back in 2019 I got broken up with, like, kind of, I kind of knew it was headed that way, but really kind of happened out of the blue.

And then I went to the gym the next day, and 7 rings by Ariana Grande was playing, and it triggered me.

And I went out and bought diamond earrings, which, like, not that I had money to spend on diamond earrings at the time. But I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna treat myself.

So, I think we've all been there with having that kind of retail therapy, or just something to, you know, change something exterior, make us feel like, even though we've lost something there's something new to kind of celebrate.

And I think that can definitely be healthy. I mean, now if I go through a tough time or something, I try to treat myself to a house plant or something because I can afford that.

And nurturing something makes me feel good. But I think it's, it's normal to kind of want to have that, you know, big mark of, like, this is a new chapter that I'm beginning or ending, and I need to do something to kind of celebrate or grieve that.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, and escapism, I think, as well. And there was joy in some of that.

So, kind of, you know, going shopping and literally maxing out the credit card with, you know, kind of designer clothes initially felt really good, you know, at the till.

But then I got home and I thought, well, actually, I've got nowhere to wear them. And I, kind of, I bought a brand-new car, a Mercedes, and, you know, which was probably more than my mortgage.

And then I got home and I'm thinking, well, where I'm actually driving? It kind of just took me to the gym and back, and that was it.

But, yeah, but absolutely, probably what you did is much more proportionate, or what you've learned now, I suppose, in terms of a house plant, is more proportionate. So, I need to learn that I think.

Rob Loveless 

Well, I can definitely give you some house plant recommendations.

When Hookups Become Unfulfilling (23:05)

Rob Loveless 

But so going back to, you know, putting yourself out there, you write about you initially went through some Grindr hookups, which ranged from mild to wild, and after a bit, you wrote that you didn't want that anymore and that it made you think of your ex and you felt unfulfilled, so you wanted to turn your attention back to dating.

So, kind of walk us through the shift of going from maybe more of the physical, the wanting of the physical, for something more intimate and emotional.

Jonathan Lee 

I think I was using Grindr to, it felt like a safer way to meet people than actually to connect with people on an emotional level. I knew from a Grindr hookup that if I didn't, you know, if I didn't like the guy, if it wasn't going well, you know, it could kind of, it would end, you know, and I could block him, or they would block me, and then I wouldn't have to see them again.

So, it felt a lot safer in that way, then actually meeting someone, I don't know, through a kind of some kind of, like, organized group, or something, you know, like, which, you know, kind of focused around, kind of friendships and things.

So yeah, so I think what I was and I think that's what I was seeking.

I'd gone from, like I said, having kind of a quite a long 15-year relationship, kind of prior, and both myself and he was called Tom, were both introverts, so we kind of lived in this little bubble, which was absolutely fine, until that bubble popped.

And then I kind of thought, well, actually, what, what really is kind of in my life, and it's really sad, but I kind of thought if, who would be at my funeral?

And that's when I kind of thought, no, the focus needs to be more on friendships.

But I think how I got to that point was was initially by kind of doing the kind of hookups, and some of them were quite funny. You know, I had a guy who stole all of my underwear.

I tried water sports and kind of, you know, so, which was quite an experience, and kind of had to kind of clean my shower about four times with the disinfectant because he kind of sprayed everywhere.

I, what other things happened to me? Yeah, lots of different things, yeah, which, kind of, which I kind of write about because they are, they are funny, yeah.

Rob Loveless 

Awesome. And I just want to interject real quick because my mom does listen to some podcast episodes. So, Mom, water sports does not involve swimming pools, and do not Google it, please.

Yeah, it was, and I think too, you know, I feel different dating apps bring different environments because people might be approaching them differently.

And I do think kind of, I have not used Grindr in years, but back when I had used it, I did kind of see that, that it brought a little bit more of the, in some ways it's good, it's uninhibited, people can, you know, find what they're looking for, but at the same time, when you're looking for something beyond that, it can be kind of an isolating place.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, and I think it's made it too easy, you know?

I think, depending on where you are, you know, like, if you're obviously in a city or a kind of large town, it's so easy just to kind of, within a couple of minutes, kind of, you know, find someone to kind of hook up with if you want to.

And I think that's kind of taken out the what's special in terms of actually meeting people and yeah, and I, I refer to first kind of logging on as a, you know, in terms of my proper profile and my experience of, yeah, just kind of asked for kind of dick pics and kind of, you know, no pleasantries, you know, I think there's a, well, yeah, again, my experience was that kind of immediate focus around sexual gratification and not everybody.

And actually, I've met some really good people who are now, you know, you know, my really good friends now, but a lot of guys, yeah, which, um, sadly, was my experience, yeah.

Rob Loveless 

And I like that you brought that up too because I do feel sometimes, like you said, with especially more of, like, the grid style apps, where it might be a little bit more hookup-focused, it almost comes across as transactional, not getting to know the person.

Because even though, you know, people can use apps for whatever they want to, as long as everything's consensual and safe, but it's like, you know, it's almost like getting take out.

You scroll through, like, all right, here's what I want tonight. I'm gonna order it. Here, come to my apartment, you know, whatever. And then you have your moment and then it's kind of done.

And in one of the episodes I did, I think it was the emotional unavailability episode, they were talking about some signs of emotional unavailability, as, you know, even if you just want friends with benefits or you want to hook up, nothing wrong with that.

But, like, if you're not even having a connection in terms of talking or getting to know somebody, and you're just viewing them as, like, this momentary pleasure for that, that could be a sign because I think, you know, we are a small community, and whether it's platonic friends, friends with benefits, just casual, whatever, there should still be a little bit more of a connection there to kind of, you know, know somebody a little bit too.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And, yeah, and thankfully. Well, I probably, probably stayed with Grindr for a few months, and then I kind of thought, right, new rule, new rule, I'm only going to go on dates.

I'm not going to be hooking up with guys, not going to kiss a guy on a first date either. And then that kind of became my, my new hobby, really.

But I really, and that's when I realized that I was a people person, and it felt really intimate at times, with people sharing, almost like the headlines of their of their life.

And yeah, that that I actually really enjoyed it. I like going on first dates. And I kind of, in the book, I talk about kind of my guide to first dates and kind of things to do, yeah, things not to do, yeah.

So, so yeah. Kind of that was my next part in terms of moving on, I guess.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah. And before we shift over to that part, one thing I did want to kind of touch upon, too in the piece about the Grindr hookups, and this is definitely going to get a little bit more serious, a little bit dark for everybody listening.

But this really jumped out to me is that you hooked up with a guy at his hotel room, and he kept in touch after that, and months later he was back in town, and you reconnected and hung out just platonically.

But you know, he said, you said he was acting a little differently than when you previously hung out and like he didn't seem like himself.

And then a few weeks after you hung out, he came up as a Facebook suggestion, someone you may know.

And when you checked his profile, you saw that he had died by suicide two weeks after you hung out with him. So, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Jonathan Lee 

When I first met him outside his hotel room, I wasn't quite sure if he was into me or not. He was saying he hadn't had time to have a bath, so he was just going to have one now.

And I thought, Well, I'm here in his hotel room. Kind of, you haven't really got time now either. But he kind of, you know, had a bath.

And was, well, actually I, first of all, I thought by bath, he must mean shower, so, you know. And then he, I looked across and could see him in this like pool of bubbles and kind of things, and yeah.

And he kept, like, chopping up the hot water. So, I thought, was he really into me or not?

But kind of eventually he kind of got out of his bath, and we, kind of Yeah, we had a really good night, and kind of agreed to stay in touch. And we had the odd message, but not a lot.

And then he traveled with his work. And then I got a message whilst I was at the gym, saying, you know, I'm back in, you know, back where you are, if you fancy meeting up.

And straight away, I thought, yeah, that sounds kind of really good. Got home, went to get ready, and then I just felt really tired.

So, I kind of said to him, Look, I'd really be up for meeting still, but I can't kind of promise a kind of night of passion or anything like that. But would you be up for just hanging out in his room?

And he was like, actually, that sounds really good, and that's kind of where I am as well.

So turned up, and straight away I could see that his energy levels were different, and there was a real, how do I describe it? He, it felt like he was being quite congruent, you know?

He felt like he wasn't trying to put any pretense on or anything like that. And I just Yeah, and we kind of hung out. We drank lots of tea.

I actually fell asleep on his shoulder, and kind of woke up and had to then quickly, kind of go back because I've got a dog that I kind of needed to go back to.

And it was a really beautiful, you know, it was a really beautiful moment, and a beautiful evening, actually, where we kind of did connect. And I felt like there was something, something different.

And I kind of questioned, I wonder if he was like bipolar, or I wonder if he'd suffered from mental health or kind of issues with his, you know, kind of well-being in the past.

But I'd only met him that, you know, twice, so that was the second time I met him. So, I didn't really, you know, have anything to kind of judge that by.

So, I kind of didn't really think any more of it, until I did come across his Facebook as a suggestion, and just went in there and found out that, yeah, he died.

And it was really odd because I didn't really know, I didn't know him, you know, I'd spent about, I don't know, four hours in his company in total, or if that.

So it was, I did feel sad, and I felt sad for him, and what felt like a loss of a life.

Rob Loveless 

Definitely. And again, while you, I think you mentioned this earlier that you said, you know, through some of these hookups or these dates, you kind of got to know the headline of these, of people's lives.

So even though you may have not known him for that great of a time, he did get a little glimpse into his life, and it kind of makes it more personal when you see that.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah. No, absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

Post-Breakup Boundaries (32:54)

Rob Loveless 

Well, as you went through the breakup process, going from hooking up to then trying to date, you eventually did go to counseling as well.

And during that, you talked to your counselor about what you described as your, as what you described as your obsessive behavior, and also trying to be everyone's caregiver and recognizing that you needed to start taking care of yourself as well.

So how did you, I guess, what brought that realization to and how did you learn to start taking care of yourself and putting yourself first?

Jonathan Lee 

Probably, I think it was through finding more meaningful activities which actually made me feel good about myself.

You know, by and obviously, it's completely self-inflicted, but by, you know, stalking Adam, you know, through my great meaning, through the kind of fake profile, made me feel like shit, you know, hardly surprising.

And using Grindr the way that I did, again, didn't really kind of leave me with that kind of fulfillment afterwards.

So, it was when I kind of thought, right, well, what do I, you know, how do I want to be spending my time? And and that was where friendship became a focus, going on some really good holidays.

I, you know, one with friends, one with family, and one on my own, which I'd never done before.

I mean, I'd never even ate in a restaurant before, you know, on my own, apart from maybe McDonald's, but, you know, not a kind of.

So, yeah, kind of putting myself out there, I guess, in terms of those new experiences, that's what made me feel better about myself.

Rob Loveless 

And as you get to the end of the book, you talk about, how, about 11 months after the breakup, you finally blocked your ex's emails because, during that time, he was emailing you, and they would always kind of start off nice, but then ended with something toxic.

Like he'd say he missed you, but then he'd move on to criticize something about you, or something you had done while the two of you were together.

And around that time, you also decided to cut your hair because you said you've been keeping it long since he liked it that way, and some part of you thought that you might be getting back together, which is why you kept it long.

So how did you feel once you blocked his email and cut your hair?

Jonathan Lee 

I think that was a real turning point for me, and I didn't realize it until, until we're actually doing those two things. And it was an observation in terms of the haircutting.

It was an observation of a friend of mine, and she was completely right that I think I was keeping my my hair long because I knew that he liked kind of, you know, longer hair.

And I'd always well in the back of my head, I think, if I was still stuck, and, you know, in the place that I was 12 months on, I think I was going to be, I was planning on approaching him and seeing what place he was in.

Yeah, which I'm now again, two years on. I think how, how was I able to think like that?

Because, actually, I know now that the relationship wasn't healthy, it wasn't good, but yeah, it wasn't until moving on, do I can you kind of, kind of Yeah, kind of see it fit for really, what it is.

The blocking the email, but it kind of got quite, it was kind of toxic throughout, actually. We kind of, when we first split up, we said, right, well, let's kind of take a bit of a break.

Well, you know, we won't kind of contact each other for a while, but it would be good to still remain friends.

And actually, prior to this, I used to say remaining friends was kind of, like, with exes was my superpower because I'm really good friends with kind of Tom and Steve, who are my previous partners.

But yeah, for whatever reason, I don't think we could be friends.

And the contact that we had it, I think I may have initiated it kind of, you know, like quite early on because I think I was in that kind of dark place and still wanted to to kind of be with him, even if part of me was imagining him with other guys, and, you know, and actually he was with other guys.

But later on, when I did start to feel that actually the relationship wasn't right, we were, we needed more growing to do apart.

Yeah, he would, interestingly, when I stopped messaging him, he started messaging me, and that's when it kind of felt like it was quite toxic at times.

So, they'd always start off kind of, you know, really friendly, and then it would be him saying, oh, I'm about to go to Greece to ornate my body in front, you know, and hop some, seriously, you know, kind of hot guys.

And I think that was the message that I got when I thought, actually, at what point is it appropriate to be saying this and, you know, and I just told him, I'm going to block him.

And that, again, just helped with me being able to move on.

Rob Loveless 

I like that you said that, you know, with a couple of your exes, you are still friends because I feel like, for, like, some of my straight friends, they don't understand why sometimes gay men are still friends with exes after a relationship doesn't work out.

And for myself, personally, I feel like, you know we're already a minority community. It's not like, everywhere we turn our head, there's going to be another gay person around.

So, if these people come into our lives that we have relationships with, obviously we were with them for a reason. We had some kind of commonality there.

There was, you know, a bond, a friendship beyond just, you know, anything romantic as well.

So, if things don't work out just because they don't work out, maybe different paths, timing, something like that, I still feel that there's value in having that friendship because there was obviously some kind of connection that brought you together.

But obviously, there is also a limit where it's like, you know, if certain things are going on, if there's toxic behavior, like you're describing here, like, at some point, you do have to draw a line in the sand and put up, you know, put your boundaries up.

And you know, if that involves blocking an email or blocking on social media, so be it.

And I'm a huge proponent of, you know, I don't think blocking somebody is this passive-aggressive, petty thing if you are, you know, protecting yourself.

This isn't like, you know, middle school where it's like, I got in a fight with my best friend on Facebook. So, I'm blocking them to, like, send a message. It's then, it's putting up your guard.

Because, you know, if there are people in your life that are constantly criticizing you or threatening you emotionally or physically or something, like, you need to put those guards up to protect yourself.

You don't owe that to them to appease their emotions if they're hurting you over and over again.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, no, absolutely, completely agree, and you've summed it up beautifully there.

I think, just because you're not with someone, and if you've shared a large proportion of your life with them, why would, why would that stop? Why would those feelings change?

You know, but, but my experience with Adam is that we weren't able to do that, and, yeah, we're not in contact now.

Yeah, I'm just thinking now that I've moved on, if we would be able to kind of pick that up, but I still kind of feel like too much has happened. But yeah

Episode Closing (39:38)

Rob Loveless 

And you closed out your book by saying that you found understanding through writing. So, can you walk us through, you know, what did you learn and how did you feel once you finished writing this book?

Jonathan Lee 

I think I learned a lot about myself. It was a real, a lot happened during that kind of 40th year for me.

So, yeah, the book starts with me waking up on my 40th birthday and finishes with me waking up on my 41st birthday and just all of that kind of learning that's kind of taking place.

What have I learned?

I'm actually a people person, I I'm a good friend, and actually, that's what's important to me, around kind of community and kind of just kind of forming those good kind of friendships with people.

I talk about my relationship with my family, and I think I kind of moved on there.

So, I've never really felt part of my family. I've always kind of felt like the odd one out, and that my thinking is different to theirs, but we do go on a family holiday together, where I revert back to being a kind of teenager with my sister, but I learned to love them and kind of accept the fact that we are very different, but that's okay.

Yeah, so there's learning across all aspects of my life, I guess.

Rob Loveless 

Awesome. And what kind of feedback did you receive about your book from your friends or family or even Adam? You know, has he read it? Is he aware that this book is out there?

Jonathan Lee 

So, I haven't had feedback from Adam. We're not in contact anymore. He's he, I think he's aware that it's out there. He knew that I was writing it.

In terms of family. I've, I've, I've, they know that it's there. I've, but I've, I've asked them not to read it because it is quite rude in places.

And yeah, so I did start to redact a copy for them, and I was kind of ripping out pages that I was happy for them to have, and I was left with just a kind of, you know, about half a dozen, you know what I mean.

But yeah, so they haven't read it. And in terms of friends, yeah, they find it very funny, very relatable.

And I've had some lovely comments from people where it's people who have either in a relationship, in a breakup at the moment or, you know, kind of just gone through a breakup, and they've said it's really helped them almost validate their feelings and kind of normalize what they were going through in terms of some of those similar feelings that I share.

And, yeah, other people have said that they've kind of deleted Grindr after reading, you know, after reading the book where they've reflected on their relationship with hookup, obviously, not just Grindr, but, you know, other apps as well.

But yeah, they've kind of reflected on that, and kind of it's, yeah, made them think about what's important to them in life as well.

Rob Loveless 

That's awesome. And, you know, I think, I mean, 40 Single Gay, I loved it.

Like I said, I think you, anyone, you know, any gay man who has been on a dating app or has gone through breakups can definitely relate to, you know, the dynamics going on within there.

So definitely recommend checking it out. We'll have the information for that in the episode description here. But I think, really, today's tarot card aligns with that book nicely.

You know, we got, again, the Two of Pentacles in reverse. It's indicating that there's some kind of imbalance in our life that's creating some tension, which may even be a result of our own choices that we're making.

And I think, you know, as we've talked about with this, going through an area where you're going through a breakup or some kind of, you know, chaos or inner turmoil, it might be easy to turn to, you know, buying diamonds or a Mercedes because it feels good in the moment, but long term, that's not going to necessarily leave us feeling satisfied.

So, we really kind of need to reflect inwards and see what we need for ourselves.

You know, how to be our own caregivers, how to put ourselves first, and really listen to our inner child, our inner voices, and taking the action we need that way to find more fulfilling means to help us through the tough time we're going through, and to remember that tough times we're going through are just momentary.

It's temporary, and we can get ourselves back on track.

An Excerpt from 40 Single Gay (43:44)

Rob Loveless

And then, to close out the episode, can you read us an excerpt from your book?

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, we've been talking about Grindr a lot, so I think I'll read you the chapter called Grindr. Okay.

Rob Loveless 

Perfect.

Jonathan Lee 

Okay:

"So, with the clean bill of health and newfound confidence from an image upgrade, well, apart from the hair, I decide it's time to start dating again. While I'm still very ambiguous about it, and still thinking of Adam a lot. I delete my blank profile, which I'd been using to track his whereabouts, and set up a prop, a proper one. It's approaching three months since we split, although it only feels like three weeks.

I know, however, I cannot live vicariously through a blank profile. Between the app and my imagination, this current life is a window into Adam's bedroom, which is a constant drain on my self-esteem and worth. Torture, just utter torture, which I've been putting myself through. Talking of torture, I experience Grindr in the same way. Why is everyone so aggressive on there?

When I first log on, I'm greeted by an array of blank profiles. Now I'd love to say that these blank images are a political statement from the guys who don't want to be objectified by an image, by an image alone as a way of meeting someone, and they want their personality, rather than their look, to be the key feature. I cannot, however, say this. I learned a lot of these guys are married, closeted, or just complete time wasters. A lot of called what's, a lot of what's called pic collectors. Fucking losers is a better one.

The app is immediate. Within minutes, seconds, you can search for men around you. Although bad to the dating site, in reality, it's, it's a hook-up site. Don't get me wrong, not everyone on there is like it, but that's my experience. There are some genuine people on there looking for dates, friends, and relationships, but the power of seeing who at the click of a button is nearby is what's liberating and amazing. Has created a culture of immediate gratification, and some people just being rude.

When you add to this that most people are sexually charged, and rather than having a wank, which we would have done before the days of Grindr, people look for a fuck instead. This motivation brings out the worst in people. I'm new blood. I receive countless pictures of a countless number of requests for photographs of my dick. Not: Hello, great profile.

Sorry to hear you're single too. I'm Howard. Just more picks, or you hung? or dick pics. I mean, at what point in real life would this be acceptable to act in this way, to approach someone in the pub and ask them to flop out their cock? Yet we're in a world where this has become the norm.

When not being asked for these dick pics, I'm questioned on what I want. It feels like I'm being attacked most of the time from a masked mugger, from a masked mugger of what you're looking for or into. That's another common phrase, but not even a phrase, a word. There is rarely politeness. No manners, no pleasantry, just to focus on instant sex.”

Rob Loveless 

Thank you. And again, everyone that is a chapter out of the book 40 Single Gay by Jonathan Lee, available on Amazon. Go check it out immediately. So good. Jonathan, thank you again for joining us today.

Jonathan Lee 

Thank you.

Connect with Jonathan (46:43)

Rob Loveless 

Before we wrap up, tell everybody where they can find you. Plug all the things.

Jonathan Lee 

Yeah. Instagram, @40_single_gay. And yeah, I'm just in the process of my website going up, so yeah. So, it's just that at the moment.

Rob Loveless 

Well, thanks again. And everyone, go follow him, check out the book. Can't recommend it enough.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (47:01)

Rob Loveless 

Also, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe for the podcast. You can connect with us on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod.

You can follow me personally, rob_loveless, on Instagram. Also, consider supporting the podcast on Patreon for as little as $1 a month.

And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.