59. Say Bye Bye Bye to Bi Erasure (with Sam McClain)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Sam McClain

Oh, my God, I think I'm bi. And my husband, who I love very much, looked at me and said, duh.

Episode Introduction (0:27)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Hay.

I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I'm a non-jaded gay because I recently started re-watching Schitt's Creek and I am just loving it.

I mean, I've seen it a thousand times before, but it's always nice to kind of re-watch a familiar show that makes you laugh. Kind of forgot how much of a crush I have on Dan Levy, so call me.

But yeah. So just enjoying that.

Bisexuality (0:48)

Rob Loveless

But anyway, I am excited because today I have a very special guest joining me, talking about a very important topic. We are going to be talking about bisexuality.

And, you know, I think a lot of the time the B gets forgotten in LGBTQ+. And for a long time, people, even within the community, didn't believe that bisexuality was real, which is ridiculous that they didn't.

They just thought that it was a scapegoat for someone who's afraid to come out as gay or somebody that, quote-unquote hasn't decided whether they like men or women better.

And as a result, we've seen a fair amount of bi-erasure.

So today, my friend Sam is going to join us to talk a little bit more about bisexuality.

But first, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (1:26)

Rob Loveless

So, today's card is The Hierophant in reverse. This is a Major Arcana card, so you know, this signal, something big is happening.

In numerology, it's number five, which is actually tied to conflict, struggle, and challenges.

Now when we hear conflict, I think a lot of the times we think of, you know, having conflict or competition with somebody else.

But this can be more internal or even just situational and not directed at somebody.

In astrology, this is tied to Taurus, which is very much about being traditional, grounded, and rigid, kind of set in our ways. So that might be some of the conflict there.

We have to kind of overcome some of those, you know, more traditional thoughts we may have had, or maybe challenging the binary a bit.

And when we draw this card in reverse, it really is kind of signaling that somewhere there is a refusal to learn, whether it's either ourselves, refusing to be open to something new, or others not understanding where we're coming from and holding on to rigid beliefs.

So, when we see this card, it's really calling us to challenge the status quo and kind of try to find some alternative ways to view the world.

And really, it's also a reminder that we don't need external approval to succeed. We need to examine where we're at in life and kind of go from there and do what feels right for us.

And again, let go of some of those rigid beliefs that might be holding us back, and be open to the possibilities beyond the status quo.

Guest Introduction (2:33)

Rob Loveless

So, turning from that, I'm excited to introduce our next guest.

She is a writer, author, editor, and all-around creative. Please welcome my friend, Sam McClain.

Sam McClain

Thank you for having me.

Rob Loveless

Of course. To kick it off, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself, how you identify, all that fun stuff?

Sam McClain

Yeah. So, I am a writer working on several projects. I have a lot that I want to do with the LGBTQ+ community and genre.

I do identify as bisexual, but I did not realize that fully until I was an adult. So, it's been, it's been a little bit of an interesting journey coming to terms with that for myself.

Rob Loveless

So, I do like to ask all my guests this, are you an honorary jaded or non-jaded gay today?

Sam McClain

Today, specifically, I'm feeling pretty good. But in general, I find that the older I get, the more jaded I become.

Rob Loveless

I can relate to that very much.

What is Bisexuality? (3:31)

Rob Loveless

So, I tend to start off with a vocabulary lesson, and I'm going to do the same for this episode.

In looking at the literal definition, Oxford Languages defines bisexual as sexually or romantically attracted to both men and women or to more than one sex or gender.

So, to kick it off, what's your personal definition of bisexuality?

Sam McClain

That's about what it is for me as well. I am attracted to both men and women. I do have types for both.

Rob Loveless

And can you tell us about your experiences of recognizing that you were bisexual?

Sam McClain

Yes. Honestly, I was 14 when I should have kind of connected the dots.

There was a moment where I woke up in the middle of the night. I was having this dream where I was kissing my, one of my best friends.

And at the time, I was growing up in a pretty religious household, and that wasn't really something that we talked about, and I knew that it wasn't really accepted in my family.

So, I spent a long time convincing myself, oh, I just dreamed that because, you know, I think she's really cool, and I want to be like her. I don't want to be with her.

And I managed to, um, convince myself of that for quite a long time. But that was, that was the turning point. I was in eighth grade. I was 14 years old.

I remember it very specifically because of how detailed that dream was and because of how strongly it made me feel.

Rob Loveless

It's funny that you mentioned that about, you know, saying like, oh, I want to be her best friend, or she's so cool.

Because that is something—and I'm wondering if maybe that's common for anyone who has a same-sex attraction, regardless of what their sexuality is.

Because growing up, way before I ever recognized sexual attraction to anyone, it was always that thing.

Like when I saw a guy that, I guess maybe in childhood, maybe had a crush on, but didn't realize that because, you know, we're taught, you know, men date women. Women date men.

But it's like, Oh, he's so cool. I want to be like him. I want to be his best friend.

And then, kind of, as you grow up, you kind of realize, you look back on those feelings, you look back on those times and realize like, oh, I think that was actually a crush.

And maybe that's similar to crushes that other kids around that age experienced. But for them, it's something that's totally normalized because they're, you know, adhering to what society has.

And for us, it's like, well, we have to write them off as being a best friend to kind of deny this crush that we might have.

Sam McClain

Yeah, exactly.

The thought that I might actually be attracted to her in a romantic sense, really scared me because I didn't know what that would mean for me or my family, or what she would think of me, or what my friends would think of me. It was this huge unknown, and I was so terrified that I just kind of shoved it down.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, and I think to kind of compound that, too is something else we have, I mean, one, we're both around the same age, so we kind of grew up in a time where, you know, we knew there were gay people on TV here and there, but it wasn't as open as we see today, or where, you know, there were people around our age who were open.

You know, if you were out as a gay kid in high school, it's because you really had no option. You couldn't hide in the closet, and unfortunately, those kids were bullied.

It's not like today, where, you know, people are more accepted, it's just you are who you are.

But on top of that, you also mentioned growing up in a religious household, which adds just a whole nother layer for many things, but especially sexuality. So how did you, you know?

Recognizing Bisexuality (6:58)

Rob Loveless

When you started realizing that you had these feelings, and again, starting off as thinking that, oh, I just want to be their best friend, how did that start developing where you realized it's more than just wanting to be their best friend?

And how did you kind of balance that and come into that growing up in a religious household?

Sam McClain

Throughout high school, I just tried not to think about it. And I was reminded of that dream pretty often because she was one of my closest friends.

We had sleepovers all the time. We hung out all the time, but I just kept telling myself, no, I only had that dream that one time and that was just, you know, a one-off thing.

And it's because I like her as a friend, and she's so cool, and she really was. I admired her so much.

We're actually still friends. But now that I think about it and reflect more on it, the time that I had that dream was about the time where I had my first openly lesbian friend.

And looking back, I'm wondering, I wonder if my own subconscious was trying to kind of poke at me, but growing up.

And to preface this, my parents are wonderful people, and it took some growing on their part when I was a teenager.

Now that we are all older, they have become much more open and accepting people, which is wonderful. I know that doesn't always happen.

But I will never forget, I was in high school, probably a senior, and I was watching Grey's Anatomy.

And just in case, a spoiler alert, there was an episode where the characters Callie and Arizona were making out on screen.

And my dad happened to come into the room when that happened, and he just kind of went off like, Oh, that's so disgusting. That's not right. They, they shouldn't show that on TV.

And any possibility that I would have felt comfortable thinking more deeply in myself and my own feelings was just kind of gone in that moment.

Rob Loveless

And it's interesting because, again, you're kind of speaking things that are very similar to things I've had.

I, one thing that stands up out to me is, you know, I remember watching The Bird Cage with my parents when, I think I was in college, and at the beginning, there's a scene where the son kisses his father on the cheek, but at that time, you don't know.

They're setting it up like, oh, he's seeing somebody else. So, it can come across as it's not romantic, but it could come across as romantic if you don't know the context of it.

And my parents had never seen the movie before, but I had, and he kisses him on the cheek, and my dad just goes, That ain't right.

And like, it's so funny though because if you saw a woman kiss a man on the cheek, or that scene in Grey's Anatomy, if it was a man and a woman doing that, it's the same action, so to speak.

It's the same romantic action, but just the gender shifted up there. And because of that, people have, are so hell-bent on that when it's like, I it's just because the genders are shifted there.

It's, you know, two women or two men. But on the flip side, if you see that all the time with straight couples, you know? And that's no problem.

It's okay exposing kids to that, and you don't have to make a comment. But when it's something that's not part of the status quo, that's when people have an issue.

Sam McClain

Exactly. It's the same feeling that's being shown, and that's what we should focus on as a society, is these feelings of love, not what's in their pants.

Rob Loveless

Exactly. And I'm wondering too, you know, you had talked about that dream, and then also, you know, seeing these things on, like, Grey's Anatomy, as you got a little bit older in high school.

Did you, at that point, did you have any what you recognized as crushes on, you know, boys in your grade that you could compare that when you had that dream of your best friend, that it was comparable to where, that's where you recognized, like, oh, this is a crush?

Sam McClain

I almost always tended to have crushes on men who were more androgynous looking, or who had more feminine features, or who were gay. Always.

And I always wondered, why, why do I fall for these guys when I don't have a chance with them? Or, like, you know, these don't look like the guys that my friends are wanting to date.

And it's all very clear now, but back then, I mean, I would see someone in the hall who, oh, maybe could have even passed for a woman, or maybe they were trans.

I don't know because, at that time, that wasn't very accepted when I was in high school and I was attracted to them.

And I always just thought, oh, you know, I'm just not very attracted to the manly men. But the reality is that I'm also attracted to women, and I was just very much in denial.

Rob Loveless

You know, I can't speak for straight people, but I think sexuality is a weird thing to figure out. Middle school, high school, such a weird time.

Especially middle school because you have people that are, you know, 13 going on 30 and then 13 that are still acting like 10 years old because people are at different places at that time despite the age.

So, whether you're gay, straight, bisexual, when sexuality starts coming into it, you're like, this is really weird. This is new for me.

And then when you realize, oh, I think this is my sexuality, which is so different than what I was told I was supposed to do. It's, it's scary.

And, you know, again, I'm gay, so I can only speak from that perspective, but from growing up things I heard, I think that a lot of people tend to discount bisexuality, and some people have old-fashioned approaches that, you know, sexuality is either black or white.

You're either gay or straight. I mean, I remember I was on a date years ago when I was living in Jersey, and this guy, point blank, asked me if I was bisexual, and I said no.

And he's like, okay, good because, you know, I feel bisexual people are just cheating on people left and right like they're not. They can't commit to anything.

And I'm like, honestly, first of all, gay men for so long have been stereotyped as being promiscuous, you know, sexually charged, and now you're pushing that on somebody else's sexuality when it's like, focus on the person and the personality versus the sexuality.

So, it just seems like, for some reason, bisexuality is a hard concept for some people to grasp, and they may think, you know, like I said at the top of the episode, they may think that someone is just in the closet still and doesn't want to admit that they're gay.

So, can, with that being said, can you tell us a little bit more about your coming out process and how family and how family and friends received it?

Sam McClain

Yeah. So, I guess you could say that I kind of went through that stereotypical college experimentation phase.

Through the first couple of years of being in college, I was dating someone who identified at the time as a cis bisexual man. And I will never forget, we were at this party.

It was a seven deadly sins party, and I was dressed as lust, and he was dressed as pride, and we actually won a costume contest.

But I was sitting on the couch next to this girl, and I don't know what my boyfriend was doing. He was somewhere else, but she and I got to talking, and she.

I don't know how this conversation turned but she asked me if I'd ever kissed a woman before. And I said, No. And then she said, do you want to? And then she kissed me.

And I just kind of went with it, until these, you know, jocks in the corner saw and went, hey, two chicks are making out. And that put an end to that.

And my boyfriend was very open at the time, and he was cool with it, and actually was thrilled, which is a whole other thing.

You know, I feel like a lot of people fetishize bisexuality, especially when it's two women.

But he then spent a lot of time in our relationship, which goes to show how awful it was, trying to get me to do it again. I ended up making out with another best friend of mine.

There was a time when he and a friend of his were talking, and his friend said, oh, I wish my girlfriend would kiss another girl. That'd be so cool.

And then she grabbed me and started making out with me, which was my first non-consensual kiss, I think, ever. And that's about where I left things off for a very long time.

And it wasn't until I met my now husband and we were engaged. It was actually during COVID, we were watching the Legend of Korra, and I realized, God, I have such a crush on the character Asami. And I was telling my husband, like, my god, she's like, just so, like, attractive.

And one day I realized I'm, like, actually attracted to this character and, like, who she is as a person, and, like, the way that she looks.

Like she's everything that I'm attracted to in women. Oh, my God, I think I'm bi. And my husband, who I love very much, looked at me and said, duh.

So, he knew long before I was ever ready to admit it for myself.

Fetishization of Bisexual Women (16:16)

Rob Loveless

You know, there were a few things you said that I want to touch upon.

But the one thing that really jumped out to me, that I actually had in my notes I wanted to bring out, was you talked about the fetishization of bisexuality, especially within, you know, when it's a woman kissing a woman.

And that's something I want to talk about, you know, because the question is, essentially, you know, within the bisexual community, have you noticed that from maybe outside, you know, general heteronormative society, is there different reception when it's a bisexual woman versus a bisexual man?

Because, I mean, I feel like, especially growing up with, you know, guy friends, and, you know, in college, it's like, I remember at parties, you know, shots were $1, but girls could drink for free if they kissed each other.

I mean, if guys kissed each other, I don't think they'd get free drinks. They'd probably get kicked out, unfortunately.

But it's just, I think there's, you know, like you said, this fetishization, where it's, you know, it's so hot when two women kiss, but when it's two men, you know, that's weird.

So, I wasn't sure if you know, as a bisexual woman, knowing other bisexual people, if you notice a different reception from society when it's a bisexual woman versus bisexual man?

Sam McClain

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I think that there seems to be so many more bisexual women than bisexual men, but I think that's mostly because bisexual women feel safer about identifying as bisexual.

I can't speak for men, obviously, but I feel like there's a stigma that men have that is different from women. And it's also a huge fetishization. I mean, look at porn.

Even straight men love to watch, you know, lesbian porn because it's so hot, and that just leads to people not looking as two women being in a relationship as being in love or just having a normal relationship.

They're looking at everything that women do through a sexual lens. I mean, this applies to straight women too, of course.

We're, we've been sexualized since the dawn of time, but I feel like there is a subset of bisexuality that is so fetishized in even in the community. It makes it difficult to feel safe to say I'm bisexual for several reasons.

I mean, obviously, you worry about being fetishized.

But there's also the way that society views bisexuality, which we touched on, like, oh, you're actually just gay, or you're just confused, or you're just experimenting. And none of that's true.

Rob Loveless

And I do wonder too, if you know, for some people out there in society, I feel like people just kind of need to have a solid answer.

So, you know, the status quo is man, woman. That's how it's quote-unquote supposed to be.

But at least if somebody is gay, while society might not accept it, they can at least say, okay, well, he likes men, she likes women. But with bisexuality, I think maybe from they just can't wrap their head around it.

So, it's they, like, they need an answer, whether it's, even if they're not coming from a judgmental place, they just kind of need an answer like, well, who do you like? When really, it's none of their business.

And why does love have to just be contained to one gender or one person even?

You know, I had an episode a few weeks back with a friend of mine, talking about, you know, he's in a polyamorous relationship.

And he said, Now, obviously that's different than, you know, bisexuality, it's about, it's his relationship type. But he said, you know, he just realized he had more love to give than to just one person.

And I feel like when, you know, in this situation you're talking about, your heart is open to it, it doesn't matter the gender, whether it's man or woman.

It's really that connection you have with them.

Sam McClain

Yeah, exactly. And I like men and I like women, is a straight answer. And people who are bisexual can still be monogamous.

I am, but I do wish that I had been more open with myself in the past so that I could have experienced more relationships with other women when I needed to because I, I really repressed that part of myself, and that's something that I'm not going, not going to get to experience.

Misconceptions About Bisexuality (20:18)

Rob Loveless

Sure. And I know we already kind of touched upon this, but I want to go into a little bit more deeper detail.

What are some common misconceptions that people have about bisexuality that maybe either you've just heard as common misconceptions or that you've experienced firsthand?

Sam McClain

I don't have much firsthand experience because so very few people actually know my sexuality, but from what I've heard, you know, the most common is like, oh, you just can't make up your mind, or you can't have a monogamous relationship, because you're attracted to both men and women and if you're with a man, you'll always be thinking about a woman and vice versa.

And it's just not true. I mean, if you are straight and you are married to someone of the opposite sex, and you see someone of the opposite sex who is attractive, you're still gonna think, oh, that person's attractive, but I love my partner. It's the same.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, definitely.

And then, in addition to, you know, some of those misconceptions, are there any, is there anything that you view as unique obstacles that maybe you've encountered, or that you just, you know, that bisexual people have encountered, that maybe someone who's gay or lesbian may not have to overcome?

Sam McClain

Yeah, I think it falls back to pretty much the same as the misconceptions that you can't make up your mind. If someone says I'm bisexual, a lot of people just assume, oh, you're just confused. You'll, you'll figure it out eventually.

But it's not the case.

Rob Loveless

So, you touched upon this a little bit already with your current relationship. But you know, even before that, how is being bisexual, how has that played into your dating life?

Have, have people been receptive of that?

Obviously, said your now husband is but prior to that did you have any issues where people were not receptive or accepting of that?

Sam McClain

Well, I didn't come out until I was engaged, but my husband was obviously very accepting, and he understood my feelings about pushing my real feelings down for so long, and he did tell me if the opportunity arose, I could take the time to kind of have a relationship with a woman and just have that experience which is very kind and understanding of them, and I appreciate it so much.

But me being who I am, I don't know if I'll be able to do that, because, like I said, I am a monogamous person, and I don't know how I would feel about it.

It's kind of one of those things where you don't know until it happens, what you're gonna do in that situation.

But as far as relationships, I feel like I've always been very picky, and I that probably just me, and not I'm only dating men.

And I honestly haven't had too many serious relationships in my life, and I've gone through very long periods where I haven't been dating anyone.

I think it was seven years between meeting my husband and my previous relationships.

So, I really haven't dated much, and I realize now that that's probably because, not only was I being picky, but I probably should have been also considering dating women as well.

Bi-Erasure (23:35)

Rob Loveless

And shifting gears a little bit. I've heard this term thrown out a lot before.

I know it's something that's, you know, coming more to the surface, and I think it's something that's really important to talk about, and that is bi-erasure.

And can you tell us a little bit more about that and what that is and why it's so problematic?

Sam McClain

There are tons of people who don't believe in bisexuality. And it all falls back to people saying, oh, you're confused, and you don't know what you really want.

It's very much a thing, and I feel like it can be pretty prominent in some of the LGBTQ community.

Not, not necessarily saying that everybody feels that way, of course, but I have met people in my life who don't believe that bisexuality exists, and I just don't understand, you know, that kind of mindset.

I mean, some people may argue that bisexuality is just pansexuality, but to me, there is a difference. Because bisexual, as a bisexual woman, I still have types.

Whereas I, my personal view on pansexuality is that you don't really have a type when it comes to appearance, you're more attracted to a personality.

And again, that's just my take on it. I'm not a pansexual person, but I still have types that I am looking for in women. I love, you know, curly hair, and like round faces.

And in men, I tend to really like dark hair and a little bit of scruff. And I have types, but, yeah, there are just so many people who don't believe that bisexuality is a thing, and it kind of blows my mind.

Rob Loveless

And what would you say to someone who doesn't believe bisexuality is real or has negative perceptions about it?

And maybe what would you want them to better understand?

Sam McClain

That's tough because I feel like a lot of people who have those opinions can be very combative.

I'm a very non-confrontational person, but I would just tell them, you know, I am attracted to whom I am attracted to, just like you are, and I can't help it, and I'm not doing it on purpose, and I'm not actively thinking I'm going to be attracted to a woman today, or I'm going to be attracted to a man today.

It's just how my mind works. When I see people.

Rob Loveless

Going back to bi-erasure a little bit, it, like you said, is a big problem that some people just refuse to believe.

So, what are some ways to combat that, either through, you know, representation or talking about, like, what do you think would be a good way to help?

I feel silly saying this because, with it being 2023, like, you shouldn't have to educate people on this, but essentially, to educate people to let them know, like bisexuality is real.

You know, the the letter B is in the LGBTQ+ community. You get used to it and embrace it.

Sam McClain

I think that's really all you can say. I mean, what else can be done to show people that you know we exist and we have these attractions, and it's not a fetish, and it's not confusion?

It's who we're attracted to. It's it's really a tough concept to think about, like how I would confront or try to educate somebody on this, especially as someone who didn't accept it about myself until I was almost 30.

But I think, just speaking from personal experience, for me, it was just kind of letting go of what I felt like my parents wanted me to be and who people thought I was and accepting my feelings for what they are, instead of trying to twist them into something that would seem more acceptable to a larger society, essentially.

It's hard to change people's minds, especially when they're very firm in their beliefs.

But at the end of the day, no matter what someone like that thinks, bisexual people still exist, and their thoughts and their own personal beliefs aren't going to change that.

Episode Closing (27:59)

Rob Loveless

And you know, kind of coming up towards the end of the episode here. What advice would you give to someone who's questioning their sexuality?

You know, specifically, if they feel they don't confine to the labels of gay or straight?

Sam McClain

Don't be afraid. If there's someone you trust to kind of talk these feelings through with, then do it.

The first person I talked to was my husband and then my best friend, and then my cousin, who is actually the only family member who really knows. And a couple other really close friends. Other than that, no one else knows.

Do what makes you feel comfortable. If you feel safe, if there's someone you feel safe with, have these conversations, and honestly, it's like with writing, having someone to bounce your ideas off of can really help you feel more confident in the story you're trying to tell.

And that same idea applies to how you are feeling about yourself as a person.

Rob Loveless

Yeah. I think that's really important. And like you said, too, you know, you have to say it to people who you feel safe with and do it in a place where you are still safe.

Because, you know, in an ideal world, we could all be out, loud, and proud. And I think that also helps, you know, create representation.

And you know seeing, you know, gay, bisexual, whatever, you know, it allows seeing that there are other people out there like you, that, you know, can help you feel that sense of community, not feel so lonely.

But at the same time, you do need to be mindful and put yourself first and your safety first.

Because you know, if you're in a situation where it may not be safe for you to come out, then you need to really assess where you can be and who you can be your authentic self with, and work towards getting to those places, which is totally easier said than done, believe me.

But you do need to take care of yourself, you know, physically, protect yourself, physically, and make sure you're safe.

So, and I think sometimes there might be pressure to come out, which, you know, it's again, easier than done, but there's this pressure for people to be out, but it may not be realistic for everybody to be out yet.

Or they may only be able to be out to select people who make them feel safe, which sounds like you know the situation you've been in with finding those people who accept you fully and authentically.

Sam McClain

Yeah, and one day, I might tell my parents how I really feel.

It's not that I feel that they are unsafe people to come out to personally, I just don't know how they would take it growing up in a in a very loving but also very Christian environment.

But there are people who don't have a support system at all, and sometimes it can take a while to build up to where you need to be, but eventually, you're going to get there.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And you know, taking it back to the tarot, we had The Hierophant in reverse, which really is kind of asking us to challenge some rigid beliefs, whether it's, you know, ourself that has to overcome those beliefs, or people around us need to overcome old beliefs.

And I think it's really important, like we talked about of, you know, reminding that the letter B is an LGBTQ+.

Bi-erasure is not tolerable. It should not be accepted. I mean, bisexual people, they're here, they're, they're real, just like all of us.

And you know, within the community, we all want acceptance, whether it's from a romantic partner, our community, our family.

So, it doesn't make sense to be asking for acceptance and then rejecting somebody else within our own community.

So, we really need to embrace everyone, all letters, all genders, all sexualities. You know, we're all part of this community.

So, challenge those rigid beliefs within yourself, and maybe share this with a friend or family member to have them challenge old beliefs as well because there's so much beyond the status quo.

We can be even better versions of ourselves if we just allow ourselves to think outside that box.

Sam McClain

Absolutely. And I think that's a very fitting card for this specific topic.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, definitely. And it was pulled at random. I swear. I don't just, you know, go through the deck and say, Oh, this fits in today.

I shuffle every time, so I pulled it up. I'm like, all right, this is a good one. But that being said, you know, we covered a lot.

Is there anything we didn't get to or any final thoughts you want to bring up before we close out?

Sam McClain

Honestly, I'm just happy to be able to kind of talk about my experiences, and maybe somebody out there is going through something similar, and hopefully what I've gone through can help.

I think it's really important to talk about our feelings and how we felt growing up and the environment that we grew up in because there are so many people who are in the same situation, who may still be hiding who they are, who don't want to.

Connect with Sam (32:31)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. Well, thank you again for joining us. I think this was a really important topic.

Definitely something I wanted to cover, but I wanted to make sure I had somebody who was comfortable speaking about bisexuality, who could speak about it firsthand because I don't want to, you know, give my view on it when I'm not someone in those shoes that knows from experience.

So, I appreciate you being vulnerable with us and having this conversation.

And is there anything you wanted to plug before we close out? Anywhere people can find you?

Sam McClain

For the moment, I will admit Sam McClain is a pen name. I am not comfortable sharing my real identity, but you can find me on Facebook @SamMcClainAuthor, or Twitter @SamMCRomance.

I do have my first Vella serial published on Kindle Vella. It's called Coffee, Tea, or Me, and it is a sapphic coffee shop romance that is now complete.

So, if you want to check that out, I would really appreciate it.

Rob Loveless

And Sam is a great writer, so definitely recommend checking it out. I'll include the links to all that in the show notes.

Well, thank you again, Sam, for joining us today. Really appreciate having this conversation.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (33:33)

Rob Loveless

Also, you can follow the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally on Instagram @rob_loveless.

Any feedback for the show, please reach out rob@ajadedgay.com. You can also support the show on Patreon for as little as $1 a month @ajadedgaypod.

And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.

Outtake (34:19)

Rob Loveless

And I just realized I forgot to do a little intro for you, so I'm gonna record that, and then I'll edit it and put it at the beginning.

So, turning from that, I'm excited to introduce our next guest. She is a writer, author, editor, and all-around creative. Please welcome my friend, Sam McClain.

All right. Now we'll just go back into the episode there.

Sam McClain

Perfect. That's what editing's for.

Rob Loveless

Exactly.