39. We Are Family: Part 1 (with Michelle Loveless)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Rob Loveless

Hope so because Mom's gonna listen to this episode. She listens to the podcast every week.

Michelle Loveless

Oh, she's gonna be upset that I told this story.

Rob Loveless

We're gonna be doing some editing.

Episode Introduction (0:29)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay.

I'm Rob Loveless and today I'm a non-jaded gay because I'm actually back home at my parents' house for a little break.

It's nice to disconnect from Pittsburgh, take a little break from everything going on out there, and just be home back in my hometown kind of away from any stress and responsibilities.

I've been walking around the neighborhood a lot with my dog. Just spending some time with my family. It's been mostly relaxing for the most part.

So, it's nice just to get away and have a little break.

We Are Family (0:55)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, today, I am very excited because I am actually having a special guest on my podcast today: my sister, Michelle.

We will be just talking a little bit about our experiences growing up within the same family but having different experiences based on that because one of us is gay and one of us isn't.

You can guess who's who.

But before we get into that, you know the drill: that's do our tarot.

Tarot (1:14)

Rob Loveless

So, today's card is The Hanged Man in reverse, which funnily enough, when you look at it in reverse, it actually looks like it's standing upright.

The Hanged Man is a Major Arcana card. It's number 12 in the Major Arcana. As you know, in numerology, you add up double digits, so one plus two equals three.

And the number three is typically tied to creativity, collaboration, and community. And in astrology, the Hanged Man is tied to Neptune, which is representative of dreams and illusions.

And typically, when we draw this card in reverse, it means that we can be feeling impatient. And there might be, you know, excess inertia that we want to take action.

But the situation we're in is not calling for us to take action yet. So, when we draw this card, it's telling us that we shouldn't be fighting our current circumstances or forcing forward movement.

So, delays are obviously annoying. And you know, a lot of us, myself included, are impatient. We just want to achieve what we're working towards. We don't want to deal with the hiccups in the way.

But we just need to trust that we're where we're meant to be. That the timing is meant to play out.

So, if we're putting in the work, but not achieving what we want to achieve, maybe that's an indication that we're still in the moment where we need to learn something so we can get to that place.

Or we're experiencing the delay because if we get to that place too soon, we won't really be grateful for what we've worked for, and what we've gone through to achieve that.

And as always, we need to sometimes quiet those emotions because when we react emotionally, usually it's not the best outcome. And we need to trust our intuition and divine timing.

So, when we draw this card, it's really encouraging us to take a moment to pause, reflect, see where we're at, and maybe see if there's a different perspective on how we should be looking at the situation or even approaching that situation.

Because remember, this card is indicating that there's inertia there. We have a lot of energy; we want to take action. But we're not supposed to be taking action yet.

So, we need to pause, really take a look at our situation, confront things that might be uncomfortable, and really determine what's the appropriate course of action to go forward. And trust the timing of it all.

And situations we're in, relationships, any dynamics like that, everything's always evolving. It's always changing.

So just because we might be feeling stuck in our current situation, doesn't mean it's actually the same situation day in and day out.

Yes, we might be working a job that we don't like, or we might be in a relationship that we feel stuck in. But that dynamic is evolving.

And it is leading us to being one day closer to the right direction where we're supposed to be going. So even though we might be feeling stuck in place, and like we're not moving forward, we actually are.

So, we just need to trust that process, take the time to pause, and really reflect on our surroundings and not react emotionally.

So yeah, that's our card for today.

Guest Introduction (3:25)

Rob Loveless

And speaking of reacting emotionally, I am very excited to introduce our new guest.

She's got a cute face and a nursing degree and is too pretty to be working full-time. I'd like to welcome to the show my sister, Michelle.

Michelle Loveless

Hi.

Rob Loveless

Would you like to introduce yourself to everyone? Tell us a little bit about yourself, what you identify as, pronouns, all that fun shit.

Michelle Loveless

My name is Michelle. I identify as...

Rob Loveless

A bitch.

Michelle Loveless

She...a bitch. Preferably she. She-bitch. And I live in Philadelphia. I work at a hospital in Center City on an orthopedic unit. I'm four and a half years younger than Rob. And yeah, we were just kind of been ballin’ ever since 97.

Rob Loveless

And you are a heterosexual. Is that correct?

Michelle Loveless

And a heterosexual?

Rob Loveless

That's okay. God will forgive you.

Michelle Loveless

Yeah, well.

Growing Up Different (4:07)

Rob Loveless

You know, nobody's perfect. So today, I really just want to have this episode. It's gonna be a lot less research-based than usual. Just really going to be a conversation with my sister.

Obviously, we're from the same family, grew up in the same neighborhood, have pretty similar life experiences growing up, but obviously through a different lens of being gay versus being straight.

So, I guess just to kick it off, Michelle, do you want to talk about, I don't know, your experiences growing up and kind of maybe realizing when you got a bit more to like the dating stages and how that dynamic played and like if there's any self-consciousness or how mom and dad approached dating and relationships with you.

Michelle Loveless

Honestly, I think that anyone would say this. I've been boy-crazy.

And I was always even super young like in like preschool and kindergarten. I was always super open with my parents and pretty much everyone on who I had a crush on.

Like, I was never embarrassed, never anything like that. So probably middle school was when I started actually like calling a boy my boyfriend.

And I would literally just be like, Oh Mom, my boyfriend, Connor...let's name job, we all have an ex. Like, I'd be like, oh mom like Connor's gonna come over.

And she would just be like, Okay. And then like, I don't know, all my boyfriends always about my parents. We always hung out at my house.

It was just never anything out of the ordinary or never anything that I thought anything about.

Rob Loveless

I do think it's all different too because especially when you go back to dating younger, like middle school, it's...dating then isn't seen as like, necessarily a sexual thing or like a married partner thing.

It's just, it's like, you come home from school and and you talk to somebody on the playground, you're like, oh, this is my girlfriend now. This is my boyfriend.

So, there's not so much that lens of like the sexuality part of it, so to speak.

Michelle Loveless

Puppy love.

Rob Loveless

Exactly.

Michelle Loveless

It's puppy love.

Rob Loveless

Whereas like, I don't know, as you've gotten older.

Like for myself, personally, and obviously never really dated in middle school or anything, but like, when I got older, and when I started dating, like my first concern was like, if I ever introduced somebody to Mom and Dad, is their immediate thought gonna be like, oh, yeah, they're sexually involved with each other, you know?

Like, there's like a sexual component to it. Are they going to see that before like the partnership or the person I bring home?

Like, has that ever been a thought on your mind with anyone you've dated as you've gotten older and a little bit more serious of relationships?

Michelle Loveless

I mean, it has been. And I've had boyfriends come on family vacations and I've had boyfriends sleep over. Or I've slept at a boy's house. I mean, Mom was with me when I was put on birth control. So, it's like, you know, like, it is open, but it's a part of relationships. So, while it might not be the most comfortable thing for myself, or my mom, I was just like, well, here's what it is. Here's what's happening. So, take it or leave it. They have to love us unconditionally. So, I tell them that.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, she does tell too much. I was on the phone with Michelle the other day, and she's like, Yeah, Mom says point blank. I share too much with her.

Michelle Loveless

Yeah, I'm an oversharer.

Rob Loveless

Don't your co-workers say that too?

Michelle Loveless

My coworkers said, Michelle, you're an oversharer. I was like, that's a great word to describe me. I'm gonna use it all the time.

Rob Loveless

All right. Okay. So going off of that. Quick, fun fact, or whatever, I guess, what's a recent overshare that you've shared with somebody recently?

Michelle Loveless

Like with mom, or with anyone?

Rob Loveless

Anyone. Just a recent one.

Michelle Loveless

I mean, I met this random man in Philadelphia, and I did kiss him lots of times. And my friend took a picture and I showed my mom. I was like, how cute? Like, how cute is that? And like, yeah, no, like we haven't talked since and he did post a picture of his girlfriend three days later, but...look at this pic, Mom.

Rob Loveless

I can't. See that's something I can't even imagine. Like, I don't want, I want to be, if I ever have like a boyfriend that she meets. I want us to be in separate rooms like I don't want us to like...

Michelle Loveless

What do you mean?

Rob Loveless

Like I'll be in the dining room. He'll be in the kitchen. That's how she can meet us. Like, I don't want any proximity towards us.

Michelle Loveless

So, you would send your boyfriend into the kitchen with Mom alone? Unsupervised?

Rob Loveless

Or he could just be in the kitchen alone and mom would be in the dining room with me. But I just don't want any proximity between us where they might be like, are they hand holding?

Michelle Loveless

See, I don't know. Like I just...

Rob Loveless

But see I've always been very shy PDA-wise because even in high school. Here's a real you know, hot drop for everybody on the podcast. I did have a girlfriend for like a month in high school.

Michelle Loveless

*Bleep*

Rob Loveless

Shhhh!

Michelle Loveless

Sorry, we're namedropping.

Rob Loveless

Alright, editing note. Please see like one of those like, *bleep* bloopers for any time a name is mentioned here.

But I mean, even when that, like that, wasn't really dating. Like we hung out a couple times, went to a couple movies, never really did anything physically like held hands.

But even that, like I remember when she was around Mom, that was still super uncomfortable for me.

Like the one time like we were holding hands and mom saw and like, that just made me feel like super uncomfortable. I don't know why.

Michelle Loveless

I don't know. Like, I don't even think that it's me being heterosexual and you being homosexual. I think that it's literally, I don't know, I don't want to say an insecurity but just like an overthinking uncomfortability with you.

The Talk (8:38)

Rob Loveless

Well, I think the thing is too, I don't know how much this ties into it, but also like, I really never got much of a sex talk from Mom or Dad about anything like that.

But see, I think you did more a little bit too, because obviously there's more.

Michelle Loveless

I mean, Mom gave me and Amy like the period puberty talk, but nothing about sex. Like she never spoke to us about sex.

And then I remember when she found out that I was having sex, she was like, absolutely floored, like, sobbing profusely in the gynecologist's office.

My gynecologist was holding her hand saying I know it's hard. I was like, Oh. I was literally, my boyfriend was a senior in high school and I was a junior in high school.

We had been dating for over a year, and she was just blown away. I was like, wow.

Rob Loveless

So why don't you walk us through that full story of how she found out that. That whole little office trip there.

Michelle Loveless

I was having a little issue of not getting my period. And I mean, like I knew that I wasn't pregnant.

So, we had to go to the gyno. And I told Mom don't come in the room with me. And the woman came in the room with me.

Rob Loveless

Haven't you ever heard of HIPAA?

Michelle Loveless

And the very first question they asked you always is are you sexually active? So, she asked and I said yeah. And Margaret did not like that.

And she goes, well, if you're sexually active, then how do you know you're not pregnant? I was like, I took a pregnancy test. I was crying.

And then she was crying and then the gyno was like like rubbing her shoulder. And I was naked from the waist down.

And it was a disaster and I got sent home with birth control. So been on it strong since then.

Rob Loveless

So, it wasn't a total loss that day.

Michelle Loveless

No, not a total loss. At all.

Rob Loveless

See, but also like, obviously, never that scenario, thank God.

But like I never had like, I feel like at least for puberty and stuff, you at least have more of a conversation with Mom about like, what changes you're going to go through.

Things like that as it pertains to your body. Whereas, I never got that with Dad. Mom said I did, but I don't... maybe I blocked it out. I don't ever remember that.

I remember learning about what sex was and bodily fluids from Friends because of the episode where Ross and Rachel are making out at the planetarium.

And she's like, Oh, honey, that's okay. Those things happen. And he's like, no, you just rolled over on a juice box.

And I'm like, Mom, what? She's like, didn’t your father talk to you about that? And I was like, No.

So, like, I never had any kind of talk with either of them to my knowledge of like, bodily changes or anything like pertaining to sex or anything like that.

So, I think that might be part of why I feel more like closed up about like the PDA stuff, or anything that could be involved. Like anything that could be perceived as like a romantic, you know, relationship, or romantic attraction or anything like that.

Michelle Loveless

Well, I will say, just going back to your previous question about like, oh, worried about like, Mom thinking something sexual. Like, once Mom did find out, it's not like I never had my boyfriend at the time over.

Like, he still came over all the time. Mom still talking all the time.

And I was just like, well, like, obviously, at that point, she knew, but like, I still never even thought like, oh, my God, she's thinking. I was just like, I don't care. I don't know, sex is part of life. You gotta live.

Rob Loveless

We're gonna segue a little bit. I think part of my apprehension with some of the relationship stuff, in terms of like, bringing someone, like mentioning about dating somebody around mom or dad or whatever, is because of some things I experienced growing up too.

Like, obviously, I'm the oldest, I'm the guinea pig. And there's like a four-and-a-half-year-age difference between me and my sisters, which doesn't seem like a lot.

But I think a lot has changed within that small frame of time of how things are perceived. Because I know messages I received growing up around, you know, gay people, things like that was not as positive, you know, both in the neighborhood, both at school, things like that.

Whereas my sisters, I know, they had a very different experience with that. Gay was not as taboo in school and things like that in just that short period of time.

Recognizing What Gay Was (12:12)

Rob Loveless

So that being said, you know, kind of segueing into this next point, what was your first experience, like, knowing what gay was?

Like, obviously, we all hear the word like, That's so gay thrown around. But when you first realized like, what gay actually meant.

Michelle Loveless

I feel like I definitely knew what it actually meant, like, probably by fifth grade. But I don't think that I had anyone openly gay in my class until seventh grade.

But by seventh grade, there were several open either gay or lesbian, like couples like not just even like, like just saying that they were out of the closet.

Like they were literally in relationships by seventh grade. And because which made sense. Like to me, I never questioned that either.

Because seventh grade was when I started having boyfriends, so if seventh grade was when other men start having boyfriends or other girls started having girlfriends, like, that's just when everyone started dating.

I was just like, Okay.

Rob Loveless

So, like, how did you I guess, how would you like find out? Like, in what context did you like, kind of...do you know where you made that connection like gay means this?

Like, you have a situation like stands out in your mind?

Michelle Loveless

I know that like, it's not like when I got to middle school, and maybe two guys were dating each other that I was like, Wait, is that what gay is?

Like, I fully already knew what it was. But I don't remember. Obviously, it had to be some point in elementary school. I don't remember. Like being like, oh, is that like, gay? Me. And so I don't

Rob Loveless

I remember like, in fifth and sixth grade, hearing the word like gay thrown around a bit more like calling people gay. But it wasn't even in relation to like, you seem gay. It's just like, you're stupid, you're whatever.

But the first time, like, this memory is so explicit in my memory. Like I, the first time I remember understanding what gay was was, I think I was like, in fifth grade, and I was watching the like, the local news.

And it must have been, not must have been, it was some story about civil unions at the time, because obviously, you know, marriage equality was not a thing.

And I don't know, maybe it was Massachusetts at the time or something. But there was some news story about it. And I remember like, I don't think I put the word gay to this.\

But I remember seeing like two men and two women walking out of like, a wedding chapel together with that, you know, like, goin' to the chapel song playing, and then the next thing I know, mom is in the family room and just turns off the TV, puts the remote down and just walks out.

Doesn't say anything. And like, I like I didn't know, like, obviously, I get the sense like something was off there.

Michelle Loveless

Yeah.

Rob Loveless

But I didn't really like that was the first time I ever thought of like, that I saw or even like processed that like two men could be together or two women could be together.

Again, the word gay wasn't associated with that at the time. But like, mom's reaction, like, I don't even know if I saw it as like, oh, this is something bad. But like, it just was like weird.

And like, oh, this isn't like, I don't know why this happened. And then like a few minutes later, like I turned the TV back on, like nothing happened. And not just with her, but like growing up in general.

There were a few other moments like that, that I think kind of put that spin on things where I always feel that you know, when it comes to talking about you know, dating somebody or being in a same-sex relationship, that there's always that spin of the well, they're two men doing this together.

Like that thought, like that's the first thought I think people go to sometimes I think because of those situations growing up of like seeing, like how people reacted to that. You know?

So, you're talking a lot more about how like around like seventh grade you started seeing, you know, guys having boyfriends girls having girlfriends.

Can you talk about just what you like, because I remember too going to your high school graduation, the valedictorian was openly gay and like one of the most popular guys in the school.

And that was not something that was seen during my time in school, which was just four and a half years earlier than that.

So, what were your experiences of like, you know, how did you see LGBTQ+ people treated in school like, you know, middle school, high school, maybe even college a little bit?

Michelle Loveless

I don't, and like maybe I was super naive or even ignorant. I don't ever remember. I mean, honestly, in general, there wasn't too much bullying in my high school.

Like, if anything, it was definitely girls against girls. Never really like, you know, we had the jocks who would maybe sometimes poke fun at like kids that weren't as popular.

But that's I'm saying like, never, at least in my grade, never at gay people. However, like I am thinking about like the gay people that I graduated high school with, and they were all chill and had friends both like, you know, they had, maybe their LGBTQ friends.

I know the valedictorian that my brother was referring to, like he had his group of girlfriends but then he was also friends with like, the boys on the basketball team.

And I know another kid was friends with like, the boys on the baseball team. Like, I don't know, like a lot of like the straight guys in my grade were still friends with the gay kids.

Like it just it wasn't weird. It wasn't like, oh, he's trying to hit on me. Like, I don't know. It was just like, very laxed, I feel.

And I mean, maybe if you asked those kids that were openly gay in my high school, maybe they did have a totally different experience that I am like neglecting to even remember.

But I don't ever remember, like, the gay kids having like kids bullying them for being gay or anything like that.

Rob Loveless

Yeah. I mean, for myself, too, in school. So, I don't know. And I don't know if this is same with you. Like, I feel that the kids that were out when I was in high school were kids who could not be in the closet.

You know, so it wasn't like maybe people even felt confident enough to be out but like there was not a choice for them to be in the closet.

And for myself, like I know there were rumors about me but I don't think I was ever bullied explicitly for like people thinking I was gay.

I mean, a little bit in like sixth grade but that was more so because I hadn’t, I hadn't gone through puberty. So, I had like a high-pitched voice, really bad haircut, was fat.

But like high school I don't remember being like, I don't think I was like really even bullied a lot. Like there was like, I mean, everybody it's like a little bullied.

But it wasn't like I was like the target of like chronic stuff. And definitely not about like sexuality. Like again, I know there were rumors about like, if people were wondering if I was gay, but it was kind of like a wondering thing.

But I don't know, I'm trying to remember. Like, I don't know how much, I'm trying to think if I even remember comments. Because like I really, I mean I was so like antisocial in high school.

Like I kind of just like kept to my own like few friends. I didn't want to talk in school. I didn't want people to know who I was because I just wanted to get through high school and be done with it.

But I don't like I'm trying to remember like what. If I had heard anything, if there was any serious any serious bullying. Again, if for the person it happens to, it's fresh in their mind.

Like they're not going to forget that. But from the outside like you might not recognize if somebody else was bullied. You don't know everything that they went through.

But I don't remember like any like, you know, smear campaigns going on against one person in particular. I know a lot of times when there were like gay like bullying stuff, it was really like I don't think it's ever just directed at one person.

It was just like gay was bad. And it was always like butt stuff. For some reason, all the guys were just like oh, I bet they like a broomstick up their ass. Like, I mean, no, like, I don't.

Michelle Loveless

No, thank you.

Rob Loveless

That's a little too big for anybody. But like, I don't like it was just like really stupid, immature stuff like that. But again, we're also like, where we grew up in high school.

Now it definitely is, I'd say, a little bit more conservative of an area. But it's not like really red pockets in the country where it's like, you're like going to be beaten with a Bible necessarily, you know?

Michelle Loveless

It is very small-town PA. So, like, I knew whether they were popular or not.

And I knew every single person's name and face in my grade. And I probably could tell you at least 70% of their parents by face and name. And like, that's all it was.

Like parents know you even if you don't know them, like kids know you.

Like not that you can't get away with bullying, but like, in a small town like that, where everybody knows everyone like you can't just be blatantly ruining someone's life, because people aren't going to know and talk about it.

Rob Loveless

Yeah.

Michelle Loveless

But as far as bullying goes. Yeah, like there was no. I don't think that there was really anyone my high school just like going through absolute hell with other kids.

Rob Loveless

Now, I will say compared to your grade, with my grade, people who were gay, I definitely don't think we're necessarily as popular. Like I do think there was a little bit like a social stigma associated with that.

You know, if like, you were gay, like I feel like you did stereotypically have to be friends with like, a lot of girls. Like the guys wouldn't necessarily be your friends and stuff.

Whereas like I said, I was surprised when I went to graduation because this you know, the openly gay valedictorian. He was like friends with everyone like he was cool with all the guys, cool with all the girls.

Like his sexuality, like wasn't really, at least from what I had seen again, I was four years after you or before, so I didn't wasn't part of that grade.

Like from what I saw, like it didn't seem like his sexuality was really an impact on his on how people treated him.

Michelle Loveless

Our valedictorian, he was honestly more flamboyant. Like he wasn't, like even when he first moved to our school, he came in ninth grade. And we all thought that he was so cute.

He was a very good-looking man. And as soon as he likes spoke, we were like, oh, maybe I can't hit on him. And I remember a girl asked him out, like, very early. And him being out at our school.

And that was like, I think that was the first time he said to her like, he's like, oh, like, I'm sorry, but like, I'm actually gay. And I think that was like, when everyone found out that it was like for certain.

And like, again, like he was pretty flamboyant. But I mean, he was just like, a really good fun person that the straight guys loved him. The girls loved him. Everybody, like got along with him.

Like, I don't think that anyone caused issues for him, thank God. And I'm trying to think if I remember him, even dating in high school.

I feel like he at least had one or two relationships that were open that, again, no one really batted an eye at. So that was good. Yeah. And then.

So, I dated a guy who had a sister who was nine years younger than me. And even more and more kids were out in her grade than had been in my grade when I was her age.

So, like, I just think that as the years go on, it is becoming just more socially normal, and something that you see more often than you used to.

Rob Loveless

I think because people, because of how things are changing, people might have the courage to live more openly. And also, I think people are, I hate to use the word tolerant, 'cause you shouldn't be tolerant.

You should accept people. But I think people are more tolerant of, you know, recognizing that there isn't just one sense of normal.

Like, you know, just having you know, a mom, dad, two kids, that's not just because that's what always was a typical family dynamic doesn't mean that that has to be the standard that has to be the one normal.

Normal is whatever you grow up with. Normal's whatever you experience in life. You know, normal is not a predefined thing. It's, normal is, you know, relative for each person.

Michelle Loveless

This whole family would be screwed if normal was one thing.

Rob Loveless

We have a very different sense of normal.

Michelle Loveless

Fun and dysfunctional.

Realizing Your Brother is Gay (21:53)

Rob Loveless

Fun and dysfunctional. Speaking of which, I want to talk about, you know, myself and our sibling relationship. So, like you know, when did you kind of first?

Because we never were in school together. Like, I think in elementary school, we were, there was one year where we were both in the same elementary school.

Then I went to middle school, and you were in middle school when I was finishing up high school. So, we never really overlapped in terms of being in the same school.

So, you weren't privy to all, any rumors, or gossip or anything like that.

But, you know, when did you start wondering about myself, like with if, you know, I was gay, or like my sexuality or anything like that, or like when conversations came up about that?

Michelle Loveless

So again, it wasn't anything I ever thought about like, I never thought like, oh I think that my brother's gay.

But like, I also never would have been surprised if I found out that you were. I remember one time; I was in seventh grade.

And a boy in my grade who had a sister, maybe like one or two grades younger than you, said to me, he's like, oh, my sister said that your brother's gay. And he said that to me.

And I was like, what? And then like, I just like, told it's not even like, I asked my brother, like, Are you gay? I literally said, I was like, oh, like, do you know, this girl? She told her brother that you're gay.

And I remember you obviously being super upset about it. And I like literally thought nothing of it. Like I was like, nothing.

But then when you did come out to us, I remember like, me and Amy broke on to mom and dad's computer and read the email or something. And she goes, I kinda knew.

And I go, I kind of knew too. And then like, we just closed the laptop and went about our day. Like it was like, no big deal.

Rob Loveless

Going back to when you said you brought it up and I was upset about it. Yeah, I was upset because for me growing up, it was a bad thing. Like not that it is a bad thing.

But that's how it perceived to be because of how people's reactions were to it. And you know, from like those experiences I talked a little bit earlier, and things like that.

Also, you know, something I've talked about on the podcast before, but it goes for my whole family, we're all religious. So, there is that other layer of complexity on top of things.

But it also bothered me because I wasn't living openly. And I was trying to not be that because I was so afraid of being gay.

So I was, you know, trying to not dress too nice and trying to like talk in a lower voice or not talk at all and trying to avoid anything that could link me to being gay.

So, when rumors and speculations came up like that, it was annoying, because it's like, well, it might not be a big deal to other people if I am, it's a big deal to me because I haven't accepted it within myself.

I mean, at that time, it wasn't even a thought that I could be. It was just a fear that I was.

But how do you think like, you know, having a gay sibling, like how do you think that's impacted your view on things?

You know, because you were, you were still in high school and I came out. Yeah?

Michelle Loveless

Yeah. I was a junior.

Rob Loveless

Yeah. So, you were towards the end of high school and obviously, I feel college opens you up a lot more to new people, new experiences, all those things.

But, you know, with me coming out, how did that... did that have any impact on how you viewed gay people or how you, you know, even beyond that just are more accepting of people who might come from other walks of life or anything like that?

Michelle Loveless

Yeah, I mean, I was already friends with gay people like the valedictorian before you came out.

So, when you came out like I was like, Okay, well, I'm friends with this person. Obviously, I'm friends with you, like

Rob Loveless

Oh, so glad we're friends.

Michelle Loveless

And just like, I will say, by junior year, I knew that I wanted to be a nurse and your job is to treat human beings, period.

Because like, whether you're gay, straight bi, transgender, whatever, like you're a human being. So, my job is to take care of human beings. It does not matter.

It doesn't even matter what your views are like. I will give you the care that we think is best, and you have the right to refuse. And that's just what it is.

So, I guess it did probably make me more, I don't want to say accepting but like, open to it. Open to like everyone lives differently. And even when I went to college, I went to college in Delaware, which is a blue state.

And on my freshman floor, we had gay kids who the straight boys loved, just like same experience that I had in high school. And then I remember we had a kid on my floor who was asexual, and I didn't know what that was.

And, you know, he explained it to our entire floor. Like I think it was actually like a floor meeting. Like even our RA was there, and my RA was gay.

And so, I think that we just had like, a super like, everyone on my floor was super open. It was nice. It's nice to be around people that are that open.

Because that like, like I said, like, to me, everyone is just a human being.

Rob Loveless

Well, I think going back to your saying, you know, everybody was open to... and I think it sounds like open both ways and like, open to having questions asked and open to having discussions about it.

Because I think it's the biggest thing. Like, you know, nobody is an expert on anything. Like I say, on the podcast all the time, being gay does not equal one thing.

Gay is different for every person. It's your sexual orientation. It's a part of your identity, but it's not your sole identity, you know?

So, you have, you know, whether it's in terms of like masculinity versus femininity versus heteronormativity versus being non-heteronormative, whatever.

Like, I mean, there's no one size fits all necessarily with that. And so, I think it's really important that people, like you said, are open and can have open conversations, you know, and are open to questions.

Obviously, there's a respectful way to ask a question.

Michelle Loveless

Yeah.

Rob Loveless

But you know, really, I think a lot of times when people have questions, it's generally out of a curiosity, and not a not interrogation, you know?

Michelle Loveless

Yeah. And like, I remember having that like floor meeting, which it wasn't even about anything like that. It wasn't even about sexuality. We just ended up getting on the topic.

And I remember like, both the gay gentleman and the asexual gentleman were like, super open about, like, anyone could ask a question.

And like, if it was a super frat boy, versus like, the super quiet kid asking a question, like, they just answered it in the same way. And like, I really felt like no one was judging.

Everyone was just like, curious. Just like talking. Yeah

Rob Loveless

Yeah.

Michelle Loveless

Am I doing poorly?

Rob Loveless

No, you're doing fine.

Michelle Loveless

Are you laughing? Really? Should we just start over?

Rob Loveless

You're doing fine. You're doing amazing sweetie.

Episode Closing (27:25)

Rob Loveless

Well, we have been recording for a little while. So, I guess just kind of to wrap it up.

Closing takes, I guess what, you know, talked about a lot. So just closing up, like what, you know, advice would you put out there?

Like what words of wisdom would you put out for that, one for people, accepting others, you know, maybe for people who are struggling to accept themselves or things like that, just in the grand scheme of things?

Michelle Loveless

So, to be completely honest with you, it always makes me sad that you didn't come out until you were much older, like 21, because like I said, I was always super open about who I had a crush on and who I was dating.

And I do think that everyone should be like that. I just think that you are who you are. And like you should have, just like that confidence.

And I will say the valedictorian of my class, that's who he was. Like, he was just like, he came out to his parents super young.

I think he was like, 10 years old when he came out to his parents, and he was just like, this is who I am. And this is what it is. And his father was very conservative and macho, and his dad handled it really well.

Because when he came out, he just said, like, this is who I am and this is who I want to be. Like, he was never ashamed of it.

And like, I think that just radiating that confidence, and just like being true to yourself, I think that you're going to live way more of a fulfilling life, than if you're trying to be true to other people's beliefs.

Because that's not going to give you any benefit.

Rob Loveless

And what about people who like need to learn to like, accept others? And again, not even just in that, but just in general. Because there's so much, you know, so much conflict today. It's like, with people not taking the time to accept or be kind to others, like, what do you have to say that?

Michelle Loveless

I mean, I'm not gonna be nice. But if you have a hard time accepting other people, maybe you need to knock down your confidence a little bit and look to see what's wrong with you.

So, if you're going to call people out and not accept someone for how they want to live their life, maybe it's you that's living your life the wrong way. Sorry

Rob Loveless

The tea.

Michelle Loveless

Sorry.

Rob Loveless

Well, thank you very much. And again, kind of just like reflecting on your piece about like, accepting yourself and everything like that.

Like the tarot says, you know, with The Hangman in reverse. We might be feeling in a place where we're blocked, like, we're stuck, and we're not getting ahead.

And maybe that's, you know, stuck in the closet, that's stuck in just being out to some people but not living fully, authentically or openly.

And while it might be concerning, or we might be hard on ourselves that we're not making enough progress, we're in that moment for a reason.

We're in that time for a reason. You know, there's something to learn in that experience there.

So, we definitely need to trust our intuition and just, you know, be there, trust the process, and as such, then we'll be building the confidence we need to really kind of live authentically, you know?

So, thank you again, Michelle, for being here. This has been... this has been lovely.

Michelle Loveless

Be-you-tiful.

Rob Loveless

Be you.

Michelle Loveless

Y-O-U.

Rob Loveless

I forgot to ask are you a jaded? Or are you an honorary jaded or non-jaded gay today?

Michelle Loveless

Oh, that's a good one. I am an honoree very non-jaded gay today because I get to hang out with my own jaded gay.

Rob Loveless

Oh, sister.

Michelle Loveless

No one's going to understand what I just said.

Rob Loveless

She said honorary non-jaded because she gets to hang out with me today. All right, well, before we wrap up anything else you want to say? Any closing messages? Any goodbyes?

Michelle Loveless

Always feel free to email me at michelleloveless39@gmail.com. My Instagram @michelle_loveless_.  Uh, I don't, I don't know the rest. Mmm-bye.

Rob Loveless

Okay, we're not there yet.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (30:35)

Rob Loveless

Hope you all liked this episode. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. If you have any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

You can also follow the podcast on Instagram and TikTok @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.

Michelle Loveless

Mmm-bye, Felicia.

Outtake (31:25)

Rob Loveless

I'd like to welcome to the show my sister Michelle. All right, get over here bitch. You're not supposed to hit the mic.

Michelle Loveless

Oh, did I hit it?

Rob Loveless

Yeah, a little bit.

Michelle Loveless

Can I talk whenever I want?

Rob Loveless

Sit, sit down though because if you're doing like that, yeah.

Michelle Loveless

Do I lean forward?

Rob Loveless

So just say like, hi.

Michelle Loveless

Do I lean forward?

Rob Loveless

I think you can. Oh, let me move the laptop here. I think if we talk like this, we should be good.

Michelle Loveless

Okay

Rob Loveless

Yeah, it's picking up, so yeah.

Michelle Loveless

Sorry. You're on air live with Michelle after midnight.