145. Resisting Erasure: Preserving LGBTQ+ History (with Michael Venturiello)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Michael Venturiello

When we see ourselves represented in history, it kind of gives us the permission to be ourselves.

Like when we see ourselves represented in history, we can say, well, if they did it and they were like me, then maybe I can do it too. Like it gives us that little bit of hope.

Episode Introduction (0:36)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a non-jaded gay because I took another step on my health journey for 2025.

Yes, as you know, I've been trying to be a little kinder to my body, eat a little healthier, and one thing I decided to start doing was drinking mushroom coffee, which I know sounds disgusting.

I was a little skeptical about it myself, but it's actually not bad. My friend Sara told me about it. She said that it was supposed to be, you know, much better than regular coffee.

There's not as much caffeine in it, so you're not getting all jittery. And also, it's supposed to be good for your hair and your skin and your nails, all the collagen. Good for digestive health, all that fun stuff.

You know, I started drinking kombucha back in the winter because, you know, I heard it was good for digestion. So, I was curious, and I bought the brand that she uses, and I actually really like it.

Yesterday was my first cup, and I made it wrong because I poured way too much water in and then used a frother, and it kind of exploded, which I had a similar issue with the kombucha.

But today I mixed it with the right proportions, it came out great. It does have a little bit of a mushroomy flavor to it. Like it doesn't feel like drinking liquefied mushrooms.

It definitely tastes like coffee, but the aftertaste is a little mushroomy, so it takes a little while getting used to.

But, I mean, I always figure I could get like, a sugar-free chocolate syrup to put in there, because that's so much healthier, putting fake chemicals in my body. But yeah, so far, I'm liking it.

And I mean, let's be real, I'm breathing heavy on 32 and I'm trying to grow out my hair so I definitely don't want to lose it, and I'm doing everything in my power to prevent myself from losing my hair.

Queer History (2:07)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, from preventing hair loss to preventing history loss. Today, I am very excited to have a special guest joining us for an episode all about LGBTQ+ history.

You know, in the past, we've talked about how there's so many LGBTQ+ history topics that we just never learned about in school.

And especially now in the current administration, we see our history being erased. For example, the Trump administration just had the word transgender removed from the Stonewall National Park.

So, it's a scary time, and now more than ever, I think it really is important to recognize our history and really promote that outward so people outside the community also see all the great contributions that LGBTQ+ people have made.

So, we're gonna get into it. But before we do, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (2:52)

Rob Loveless

Ooh, today we drew Death in reverse. And I think this is the first time I've ever drawn this Major Arcana card. Like, even for personal drawings, like, I don't think I've ever drawn this.

So that's fun, and the meaning of this card is pretty straightforward. So, the end. That's the end of the episode. Mmm-bye. Just kidding.

Death is actually a really misunderstood card because it's not literal death.

It's all about transformation because when we let something go or say goodbye to something, it gives us the opportunity to release the bad and move on.

Again, tarot is all about cycles, including birth and death. And given we're in spring now, think about flowers.

You know, they die in the cold winter months but bloom back more beautiful each spring as they grow over the years. So, looking at Death, it's number 13 in the Major Arcana.

So, when we add double digits together, we get four, which is tied to structure, stability, and our foundations. And The Emperor is number four in the Major Arcana.

He's a very powerful, authoritative figure as it relates to our own personal strength. So, these two cards are somewhat tied together.

Now, typically, when we draw Death, it's asking us to surrender into this cycle of change and release the things that we've either outgrown or are no longer serving us, which isn't always easy to do.

However, when we draw this card in reverse, it's signifying that we may be holding on too tightly to the past and refusing to change.

And this is dangerous, because we may be on the verge of meaningful change, but we're resisting it, and by doing that, we may be blocking ourselves from experiencing something new and really great.

And with Death having a masculine energy, it's asking us to take action by embracing this change instead of resisting it.

Guest Introduction (4:26)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I'm very excited to welcome our next guest. He is an LGBTQ+ historian and founder of Christopher Street Tours. Please welcome Michael Venturiello. Hi, Michael. How are you?

Michael Venturiello

I'm good. Rob. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Rob Loveless

Of course, thanks for coming on. I'm very excited about this topic.

We're in a time right now where we're seeing, unfortunately, LGBTQ+ history being erased, and a lot of us weren't even really taught LGBTQ+ history in school, so what little history we have we're seeing in jeopardy here.

So, I'm really glad to have you on to talk to us all about Christopher Street Tours, how you're working to promote LGBTQ+ history in New York, and just, you know, all the fun facts that we might not know. 

Before we get into it, though, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your career, how you identify, pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, sure. So, the basics about me. So, I'm Michael, I use he/him pronouns.

I identify as queer, and my short background is I actually started working in higher education, and then I worked in corporate America.

And then I got laid off from my job at corporate America and decided to do these gay walking tours.

So now I kind of joke that I'm, like, a full-time gay person, like it's my job to give these gay tours, and it's really amazing.

It's actually changed the way that I think about, like, traditional work life and professionalism. And you know, my business card can look however I want it to, and I'm my own boss.

Like, there's a lot of great perks about being an entrepreneur, but I think by far, it's one of the most fulfilling jobs I've ever had giving LGBTQ walking tours.

But so much of what you said in the beginning is really why I jumped into Christopher Street Tours when I first started giving tours in 2018.

The mission, and we are pretty mission-forward, it's to share stories and uplift voices from those that paved the way before us.

For me and kind of a little bit more about my my younger background, I was always kind of like the history nerd, you know, like in the back or the front of the class, but like sitting in the back of the school bus, like nose in a book, you know, people would like, throw papers at me.

I was definitely like a nerd, you know, but I was learning so much, and history was obviously my favorite subject.

And kind of fast forward to, like, adult life, I was doing that same exact thing, and I moved to New York City in 2016 and was this, like, young queer man that was, like, ready to take on, you know, the gay history of New York, and I wanted to write a book about Stonewall, and I wanted to go on an LGBT tour. 

And there wasn't really one. Like, there wasn't really an LGBTQ walking tour that was affordable or was accessible all year round.

And that was really what helped me start Christopher Street Tours, was having a place where people could come and learn this history.

I understand not everyone wants to be as deep into archives as maybe I would want to be so an accessible way where they can come learn about the history.

But to your point, so many of us don't learn about this history in schools or ever, really.

So, I'm really glad to be doing this work, and I truly feel like it's my my life's honor and my life's mission to be leading this team right now.

Rob Loveless

That's awesome, and I'm really excited to be talking all about LGBTQ+ history with you today.

We've got a lot to cover, but before we get into it, I do like to ask all my guests. Today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay and why?

Michael Venturiello

Ooh, that is a great question, and it depends on the day. Is that a cop-out? I don't know if I can say that. It does. It depends. It depends on the day. And I'll tell you why.

There are some days, I want to be really real, right? Like, I'm not trying to, like, present this persona, you know? I want to be really real.

Like, there are some days that I am a very jaded gay, and I turn on the TV and the news for two seconds, and I'm, like, so over it that I kind of just want to, like, curl up with my dog and, you know, hide under the covers and kind of wait out the next four years.

But I can't do that. You know, as much as I wish I could, I just think, like, there's, there's just too much work to be done.

There is an amazing quote, and I'm gonna butcher it, but it talks about the AIDS activists in the 1980s where it says something to the effect of, like, people would, you know, march all day in the streets and then dance all night.

And it sort of, I think, captures that really beautiful time, you know, also a terrible time. It's both. It's dual.

But people were marching in the streets, but then they also needed something to give them joy, so maybe the dancing. So, I think for me, it's the like, are you jaded or not jaded?

And I think there's room to be both. I think there's room to be both, where, you know, you can feel a certain kind of way, but then hopefully feel not jaded and inspired maybe to continue paving the way forward, but it depends on the day. I'll say that.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. I feel the same way with myself, and honestly, given the current political context, I feel like it is very easy to be jaded.

But like you kind of said, I feel sometimes the jadedness is what pushes us to continue fighting for equality, to work towards a non-jaded future.

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know, there are moments that we need for, like self-care, you know, because we can't provide from an empty cup.

But at the same time, I think there's a lot of power in numbers. There's power in community.

So, to try and be as unjaded as possible, or maybe using that jaded feeling to, like, fuel activism or positive social change.

Maybe that's the reason why. Maybe that's your call to action. And I think that's a really cool thing too.

Rob Loveless

It's like with great jadedness comes great responsibility. I think that's what they said in Spider-Man. Something like that.

Michael Venturiello

I love that. Yes, I'm gonna use that. That's a good one.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Well, kind of shifting from jadedness to history. You obviously talked about upfront how, since you were a kid, you loved history. You were in the back of the bus reading all the books.

Specifically, though, can you share a bit about your personal connection to LGBTQ+ history and storytelling?

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, I can. Thanks for asking that. So, giving LGBTQ+ history walking tours, it would make sense, you know, that I'm a history nerd, but actually, where it really comes from was my love of books and my love of reading.

And I think maybe a lot of queer people can identify with this where they didn't necessarily have the best childhood growing up, and they went to books to kind of find like other worlds, places where they could escape to.

And that was certainly me. I was holed up in my room, and nose was always in a book. And it wasn't always history. It was just sort of these exciting worlds that I could escape to.

And I studied English in college. I was really interested in literature and storytelling, and I wanted to write a book, which was kind of my MO for moving to New York City.

Like, I'm gonna move to New York City and I'm gonna be a writer, like, I'm gonna be a famous writer. And I don't, I'm trying to think of what it was, it was my grad school thesis, actually, that kind of sparked this idea of, like, I'm gonna write a book about LGBT history.

At the time, I was studying higher education, so working with, like, colleges and universities, and my thesis was the impact of the Stonewall Riots on college campuses because I had to, like, tie it into working in higher education in some kind of way.

So, I was like, let me see what I could do here. And I wrote the thesis. I learned a lot about Stonewall. I learned a lot about what was happening after Stonewall, with gay liberation and all these new LGBTQ organizations that were coming to light that had never existed before.

And I really felt like there was something to be said or written, rather so I went to New York. I wanted to write this book, still working on it, you know, six years later, but that's a different story.

But I think what was really integral to the idea of moving to New York writing a book about LGBTQ history was not necessarily putting words down on a page and then having that in a bookstore somewhere, but more so me telling the stories of LGBTQ people and uplifting those stories of those that paved the way.

For me learning about LGBTQ history didn't come until college, and it was through a literature lens. I took an independent study just me and one other professor, one professor about LGBTQ+ literature.

And for me, LGBT history, it's not just a subject matter or something to read about. I think it truly is life-saving.

Representation is life-saving, and I can certainly say that for me, when we see ourselves represented at all, you know, in general, but in history, it kind of gives us the permission to be ourselves.

Like when we see ourselves represented in history, we can say, well, if they did it and they were like me, then maybe I can do it too. Like it gives us that little bit of hope.

And through that journey, was really what led me to that intersection of LGBT history and storytelling. I was a tour guide in college, so I just kind of like took that piece and said, maybe this is something that I could do.

And I literally showed up on a random street corner in New York City on a random Saturday.

I put an Eventbrite as like a free tour, and I thought it would just be me walking around the Greenwich Village all by myself. And surprisingly, I had a small group of folks that came and did the tour.

And then I did it again the next Saturday and the next Saturday, and from there, it just grew into what we now have as Christopher Street Tours.

Christopher Street Tours (14:01)

Rob Loveless

And I know you previously talked about what inspired you to start it, and you touched upon a little bit about how it started.

Can you kind of walk us through a little bit more of how you took Christopher Street Tours from the initial idea to the amazing tour company it is today?

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, thank you. So, I think when I talk about when Christopher Street Tours started, there's sort of two answers to that.

So, I started personally giving LGBTQ tours in 2018, you know, that random side corner, just giving my tours for free to whoever would want to come. And that was great.

You know, I built a logo myself, like on Canva or some other platform, and I had a really, really basic website.

You know, and I was doing the tours and the work mattered, but it really wasn't until August 2023 where it really went to the next level. And coincidentally, that's when I was laid off from my corporate job.

You know, my desk job in corporate America, where I was sort of put in this pivotal moment.

And I said, you know, I could either go back to a corporate desk job, or maybe work in higher education again, or I could take the courageous step. I could take the leap that I've been so desperately wanting.

I just needed a little push from the universe, and that's what I decided to do, is to pursue Christopher Street Tours full-time. And since then, that's when it's really grown.

That's when it was able to go from this, like a one-person operation to now, we have a team of five incredible queer tour guides that are also storytellers and activists within the community.

We were able to expand into different neighborhoods. We're now offering different products, so LGBTQ walking tours, but also different curated experiences and speaking engagements and things that I just wasn't able to do when I had a full-time job in addition to this.

So, it's been really great to kind of sit and reflect on where we started six years ago and now where we are just because we can do more, and a big part of our mission is access to LGBTQ history.

So, for me, this is beyond me, like, it's beyond what Michael, the individual human, is doing, but more so like the thousands of people that are now able to have access to this history because of the work that my team is doing, and I just feel so grateful that I'm able to lead that work and lead that team.

Rob Loveless

That's awesome, and it's great work you're doing. I think it's something that we really need in the community, especially in a major hub like New York City.

There is so much queer history there, but sometimes it remains hidden from even people who are searching for it.

And for some listeners out there, the name Christopher Street might sound familiar, and that's because that's where the Stonewall Inn is located, if I'm not mistaken, and the riots took place at.

So, can you tell us a bit more about what role Christopher Street played in LGBTQ+ history?

Michael Venturiello

Yes, I love this question. So many times, people think my name is Christopher. And there's a joke that I actually have on my tour, because, of course, we see Christopher Street in New York City.

And I'm like, Woohoo. Like, here it is, Christopher Street. This is our namesake, Christopher Street Tours, but my name is Michael. Like, don't get it confused, but they do.

They think it's like, you know, Christopher Street Tours, that I would name a tour company after myself, but I didn't.

It's because that Christopher Street is such an iconic place for LGBTQ history in New York City. So, you're correct.

The Stonewall Inn is located on Christopher Street, which is where the Stonewall Riots occurred in 1969, but there's so much history on Christopher Street.

Going all the way to the end of it, you'll see Christopher Street Piers, if folks are familiar with maybe the show Pose or Paris is Burning, the documentary that all took place out on the pier.

And essentially what it was was a place for, I'll say, maybe underrepresented folks within the LGBTQ community.

So maybe trans folks or youth or people of color that weren't able to navigate life as openly maybe. Out on the piers, they were able to have own community spaces.

This is where we see a lot of like practicing for ballroom and dancing and community gatherings out on the pier.

It's also where we see Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera talking to people about their organization, STAR, or the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries, the first trans advocacy organization in the world. 

So that is just the pier alone, not even considering like the rest of Christopher Street.

Close to the Stonewall Inn, we had the Oscar Wilde Memorial Book Shop, which was the first gay and lesbian bookstore on the East Coast.

It was on Christopher Street from the early 1970s all the way through 2009, so it was there for quite some time operating as not just a bookstore, but also a community organizing space, and again, really close to the Stonewall Inn.

So just Christopher Street has sort of become this, like, emblematic spot for LGBTQ people and the LGBTQ community for the last 60 years, but even still today, when I give my tours, there's always families or friends or couples that are just walking down Christopher Street, and they go to see the plaque at the Stonewall Inn, and they're taking photos.

And now across the Stonewall Inn, there's the gay liberation monument, which is in Christopher Park. So, there's all the rainbow flags.

It's just kind of like a hub of queer culture and history, which is why Christopher Street was such an important place for me that I wanted to literally capture it in the name of my company, Christopher Street Tours.

Rob Loveless

And you told us how yourself and the other five tour guides are all storytellers, and you put together curated experiences for the tours. So how do you decide which stories to highlight?

Michael Venturiello

So, it's funny that you ask me that question, because I made the tour six years ago, and it was like the Michael tour. Like this is all the stuff that I want.

But since then, we've been having six years of tours, you know, and all these other storytellers that have joined and have been able to share their own experiences and their own stories.

So, we're actually going through, like, an updated process right now where we're updating our Village Pride Tour to include all of these new stories.

And I think for me, as I was going through that process, there were two things that were really important for me to consider. The first being, is this history as inclusive as possible?

Both historically, like, am I including all of the important parts of history and not selecting or hand picking, you know, the most shiny ones, but really giving, like a full, accurate depiction of this history, but also inclusive of people and their identities.

Like are, when we say an LGBTQ+ history walking tour, are we actually including stories of all identities? Do we have lesbian, bisexual, trans stories on our tour, and how are we incorporating those stories?

The second piece though, when I talk about how I built this tour, is I like to say it's 50% historical research and 50% hearing stories.

Like 50% people that have either come up to me on my tour and said I was here, like, at Stonewall or at the New York City AIDS Memorial, when we're talking about ACTUP.

You know, people come up and they're like, I was in the city in the 80s, and I remember these protests. And I always give them my card, and I say, let's talk more about this.

Like I would love to get coffee or lunch. So, after six years of that, being able to infuse not only all the historical documents but also people's stories.

And I think that's what makes our tour unique, is that, rather than just saying, like, here's this building, and this happened here in 1969 and then this happened in kind of a chronological play-by-play, which is important, but the storytelling is, I think, really the main component of our tours, and why people take away so much is because, on top of the date and what happened here and why that matters, we can also say, and this is the story of this person who is actually here, and this is what they felt, and this is what they were thinking, and this is how they perceived that moment to be. It puts guests right in the heart of the history, and then when they walk away, hopefully, they're carrying those stories with them.

Rob Loveless

I love that you said 50% is based off of the history, and then 50% is based off of the stories from people who were there experiencing it because, if you look at general American history, obviously there was a lot of attention paid to it.

You could have tens of thousands of first-hand accounts. But LGBTQ+ history, up until the Stonewall Riots, there really was not much coverage around it, and even the coverage around that was kind of minimal compared to what we might see today.

So having those first-hand accounts really adds a lot of flavor and more context to what people are experiencing.

And also, then going off of that, in the 80s, with the AIDS crisis in New York City, we lost an entire generation of gay men.

So still having those stories passed down within the LGBTQ+ generations really keeps those stories alive.

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, and I'll even add to that, Rob the stories even through the 80s and the 90s, and even still, today, we're seeing it.

It's sort of criminalizing queer history in a way, and queer people that, you know, the early articles, let's say of like pre-Stonewall activism, or even at Stonewall, would refer to LGBTQ people as deviants.

Or at Stonewall, there was an article, it's actually hanging inside of the Stonewall Inn, and the title is Homo Nest Raided and Queen Bees are Stinging Mad, which is kind of awesome.

Like in 2025, like, it's very campy and funny, but like in 1969 to be referred to that as, like, the homo nest and Queen Bees, it's kind of like offensive in a way. I mean, it is.

So partially, I think not only are we uplifting these stories and this history, but almost reclaiming it in a way of, like, turning these stories of, like, criminals and deviants.

That was kind of the mainstream media narrative again, even still today, in 2025, and saying, you know what, just because LGBTQ folks were perceived this way does not make it true.

And in fact, all of these people that stood up against these oppressive governments, against these oppressive laws and structures and institutions, were not deviant or criminals.

They were actually incredibly brave, badass people who changed their community and ultimately changed the world. And that, I think for me, is really where the importance of radical storytelling comes in.

LGBTQ+ Community Guidebook (24:34)

Rob Loveless

And in addition to Christopher Street Tours, the company also offers an LGBTQ+ Community Guidebook. So, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, that was an idea that actually came from one of my tour guides who said, you know, I have been in New York for a few years.

I know New York City, but I think the thing about New York City is, like, you could ask a hundred New Yorkers, and everyone will have their own version of New York City.

Like the places they like to go to, their favorite spots, their favorite bars, whatever it might be.

So, when you're trying to put together, like, a definitive guidebook, there isn't really one, but the idea from this tour guide was kind of, like, you know, people ask me all the time after my tours, like, what are the gay spots to go to?

Like, what are some gay-owned restaurants or gay bars, or, you know, other places? Gay bookstores. And he knew what he knew, but he lives in Brooklyn, you know?

So, tourists might go down to Brooklyn and see some of his favorite spots, but maybe not.

So, what I did was, actually, I asked all of my tour guides, our whole team, to compile a list of their favorite LGBTQ spots across any borough, and then put it together in sort of this comprehensive LGBTQ guide of all these queer-friendly places.

So, my hope for that guide is afterwards, you know, they they go on this great two-hour tour. They feel inspired.

They want to continue in their queer journey, but that they can also support other LGBTQ-owned small businesses in New York City and continue their, their educational or community journey, however they pick. So that's the hope for that community guide.

The Importance of Accessibility to LGBTQ+ History (26:06)

Rob Loveless

And, as you talked about, Christopher Street Tours focuses on increasing access to LGBTQ+ history. So why do you think that accessibility is so crucial today?

Michael Venturiello

Well, I think we mentioned it a little bit in the beginning, but just the idea that LGBT history is not taught in schools. And it seems, I mean, it's not trivial to me.

It might seem trivial to other folks, but, you know, we're talking about things, I'm in my 30s, so, like 30 years ago, you know, I wasn't taught LGBT history in school.

And it's like, well, why are you still talking about that?

It's because students in their formative years, if they're not learning this history, what that does to not only queer people, but also allies or anybody in the classroom, is it says that either queer stories don't exist, which is not true, or queer stories don't matter. And that's even more not true.

So, for me, it wasn't until college that I really started learning about LGBT history, and that was only for my own interest. It wasn't even a formalized course or a formalized class.

So, it goes back to that idea I think, of LGBT history being life-saving. LGBTQ youth are one of the highest risks right now for suicide because all of the circumstances in their life, which is a heavy topic, but I think it's really important to talk about, because if they are able to see at least one other successful queer person in their lives that they know is successful in whatever way that means.

Not just career, but just in living, in being queer, that risk automatically reduces.

The same thing works in history. If they can look at a history book and say, dang, look at this amazing queer person that literally changed the world, they might have a little more spark in them.

They might think that their identity is amazing, instead of something to be changed, which I think society, unfortunately, again, especially now, is trying to change that narrative.

So it goes, it really does go back to those early years of students learning LGBT history, which is why, actually, we haven't talked about this yet, but all of our tours for people under 18 are free.

So, they could just sign up. They can hop on a tour for free. We get a lot of families that way, which is really great.

It's amazing when parents bring their LGBTQ children on our tour, just to learn more, but again, to see themselves represented.

It really can be a life-changing experience for a young queer person to see themselves in that kind of way. So, for me, that's why accessibility is so important.

Rob Loveless

I love that you're offering free tours for anybody under 18, because, like you said, this isn't something taught about in school.

And it's kind of coincidentally, last night, I was watching Gay USA, which was, I think, the first gay documentary from 1977 and there was a Gay Freedom Day in San Francisco.

It was the first time I'd ever watched this, and I really enjoyed it and just kind of understanding the context of, you know, where people were at in 1977.

So less than 10 years after Stonewall, and just a few years before we really see the AIDS crisis come up. 

But one woman was interviewed there who was straight, and she said something along the lines of, even though I don't understand it, gay rights are civil rights.

We fight for civil rights, so we should be fighting for gay rights, because if one group is not free, then none of us are free.

And I think it's true, because, you know, we do, I mean, when I was in school, I don't know how things are going now with the current political administration, but when I was in school, we did learn about the Civil Rights Movement and the suffragist movement.

And, again, LGBTQ+ people, queer people, they do have a tie into both of those different movements with the intersection of identity. So why aren't we teaching this in schools?

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, it's exactly right, and I'll give you just a brief historical example. So, every student learns about the Civil Rights Movement, and we know kind of these, like, big key players, like Dr King, for example.

But I feel like nobody knows, and I say this you know lightly, but maybe nobody learns about in school, Bayard Rustin, who was sort of Dr King's right-hand man, and was the man that literally planned the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, where Dr. King delivered his famous, I Have a Dream speech.

Bayard Rustin literally planned that March. But nobody really knows about his name, because even within the civil rights movement, Bayard Rustin was sort of pushed in the back.

Like he was really never able to come in the spotlight because he was a Black gay man.

And even the leaders of the Civil Rights Movement said basically, like, Hey, we love you and we love your ideas and we love your organizational skills, but we're worried that if we put you at the front, that means our movement is going to take a hit because people will see you as gay, and that'll be kind of a negative connotation of our movement, and we don't want that.

Even things like that, like you said, the intersection, I think, is such an easy way to tie in LGBT history to current curriculum.

I advocate for, like a whole new curriculum, inclusive of LGBTQ-specific units where they're learning about Stonewall and the Julius Sip-In and the AIDS epidemic, but that might be a long time coming.

An easier way is to just think about the current curriculum that already exists, like the Civil Rights Movement, and talk about some of these key iconic figures that are also gay, and just to share LGBTQ people exist and they made a difference, and they continue to make history. I think is such an important lesson.

Misconceptions About LGBTQ+ History (31:47)

Rob Loveless

Going off of that, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have about LGBTQ+ history?

Michael Venturiello

The biggest misconception I think that people have is that LGBTQ plus history is history. Like, it's over, like, been there, done that, it happened. We have our rights and we're good.

And maybe it takes this current political administration for folks to realize that we're actually far from good.

There is a lot that's still on the line, and certain rights that people thought were kind of secured and in the bag are now being threatened and challenged.

The word transgender was literally just removed from the National Park Service website at the Stonewall National Monument, which is so ridiculous in a way because trans folks were literally on the front lines of the Stonewall Riots.

So, to remove their identity completely from that website, I think, is an attempt to remove them completely from history and from society, and it's a current battle to remove them and their existence now, like in present day, like talking about trans folks and trans identity.

So that's just one example. I could give you a dozen others of like how we're still continuing to advocate for LGBTQ+ rights.

So, it worries me when even queer people are guilty of this, like, maybe getting a little too comfortable or a little too complacent with these ideas of like, well, we have our rights.

And, you know, isn't that good enough? Like, we saw this with marriage equality a lot. Like, well, now we have the right to marry. You know, that's that's all we need. We're equal.

And we're not, like, there's so many other, even just legal ways that LGBTQ people are still not considered to have equal civil rights. So, the fight continues.

But I think also what that means then is the history continues. Like, it's easy to look back on history and be like, man, Marsha P. Johnson was awesome. Sylvia Rivera changed the world.

I could never do that, you know, but they were incredible. And the reality is, is, like, somebody today in 2025 has to be the next Marsha P. Johnson, or has to be the next Sylvia Rivera or the next you.

Like, the next fill-in-the-blank, whoever you are. Like, we have to step up and kind of take on some of these leadership roles to change the world, as big as that sounds.

But we are in a position where history is being made still and needs to continue to be made every single day.

Rob Loveless

And to your point, with the removal of the word transgender at the Stonewall National Monument, I mean, that is literally erasing history, because it's not just, oh, pushing back against rights or rhetoric or this or that. Like that is erasure.

Michael Venturiello

It is, and I think it's parallel to like them trying to erase trans folks.

Like this, you know, again, ridiculous idea of like, there are only two genders when we know, even scientifically, like, that's just not true.

But you know, again, that's it's just things that we need to work with. And not work with, but maybe work. How do I say?

Again, I think these are just things we need to advocate to change and continue fighting against.

Craig Rodwell (35:04)

Rob Loveless

Well as we are working to fight against erasure, what is a lesser-known LGBTQ+ historical event or figure that you love introducing people to?

Michael Venturiello

I love the story of Craig Rodwell, and I'll tell you why. Again, this is, you know, I say this generally, but nobody knows about Craig Rodwell.

Like, if we were to say, like list five LGBT historical figures, Craig Rodwell usually doesn't come up, which is shocking to me, because he has done so much work for the LGBTQ rights movement.

And I can give you just a couple examples, but it's funny, because on our tour, sometimes I'll joke that, like, it's kind of, like, a Craig Rodwell tour, because he just keeps popping up.

Like every significant event, he's just there. But he was at the Julius Sip-In, which was an early pre-Stonewall protest for LGBTQ rights in New York City. He was one of the four activists that were there.

He, you know, cute little baby face, Craig Rodwell, but his story starts when he, himself was a young LGBTQ person. So, he moved to the city when he was 18 years old.

He wanted to join the Mattachine Society, which was like the leading LGBTQ organization, or it was mostly for gay men at that time, and they were like, you’re too young, like, come back to us in a couple years.

And you know, when you're officially 21, like, officially an adult, you can join us. And he did, you know, he does. He joins the Mattachine Society and all that.

But in the meantime, he also formed the Mattachine Young Adults, which was an early like LGBTQ youth organization, which is something that hadn't really existed at that time.

A few years later, I had mentioned earlier the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop. He was the founder of the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop, the first gay and lesbian bookstore on the East Coast.

He did that when he was only 24 years old, and within the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop, he then forms another queer youth organization called HYMN, H-Y-M-N, which stands for the Homophile Youth Movement in Neighborhoods.

And then a few years after that, he was actually at Stonewall. Like he was at the Stonewall Riots, handing out flyers to everybody.

And then after the Stonewall Riots, he was so empowered to do something different, like he was kind of, like, this way of activism that we've been doing before Stonewall isn't really working.

Like working with the Mattachine Society, where their thought was kind of like the need to assimilate into heteronormative culture, which is why you see a lot before Stonewall, like, gay men at protests were wearing suits and ties and queer women were wearing long skirts and dresses because of that sort of assimilation technique and respectability politics.

Craig Rodwell basically says f that, like, we're moving on to a new era. And in his apartment, which we see on our tour, he brings three of, three or four of his friends together and brainstorms, okay, what are we going to do?

Like, what's the new way? Like, what can we do? And they create an idea for an annual demonstration to be held every year on the one-year anniversary of the Stonewall Riots, June 28.

And the first one was 1970. They loved it. They proposed the idea, it gets passed.

And they organized this big protest march that starts downtown near Stonewall and then goes all the way up to Central Park, and then they have this big rally gay-in with, you know, thousands of people that are protesting for LGBTQ rights.

Again, the date was June 28, 1970. It was so popular; this idea was called Christopher Street Gay Liberation Day.

It was so popular that it started spreading to other cities and states and countries all around the world. And if you're like, okay, Michael, I see where you're going here.

This idea of LGBT people marching through the streets of their city in June, bum bum bum, is now Pride. 

Like, so Craig Rodwell was the visionary behind what we now know as, like, the Pride March or the Pride Parade, however, you say it, where billions of people celebrate all over the country and all over the world, and that was because one man's vision.

So, I love to share that story, because A, I think Craig is sort of like an unsung hero, a little bit to some extent. Like not a lot of people know his name or his story.

But two, it also shows the power and the example of one person. Like you don't have to be like this, I don't want to say incredible, because, like, all of us are incredible, you know, just for being here.

But like, you don't have to do anything like so incredibly monumental to make a difference. Like Craig just gathered his friends and was like, yeah, what if we do a protest march?

Like, that sounds pretty cool, and, like, something we kind of need right now. And that literally turned into Pride as we know it, where billions of people are celebrating. So yeah, he's a good example.

But there's a lot of stories like that on our tour, and even just beyond the power of an individual and the voice and the vision that they carry.

Rob Loveless

That's awesome. I've definitely wanted to do an episode on Craig Rodwell because obviously, he came up in the Stonewall Riots episode that I did, but his name has popped up in a few others, and I can't remember the episodes off the top of my head.

But I recognize the name, and it seems like there's a lot of history there. I didn't know about how he kind of was the founder of the modern Pride movement.

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, he, he's an incredible guy. So definitely recommend an episode there and happy to chat more about it. 

Sharing LGBTQ+ History Outside the Community (40:35)

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Well, in addition to your work launching Christopher Street Tours, you've also spoken at major institutions like NYU and Christian Dior.

So how do you tailor your approach when speaking to different audiences about LGBTQ+ history?

Michael Venturiello

Yeah, it's a really good question. So, every presentation that we do is different.

So, whether we're talking to school groups or college and university groups or corporate companies, it depends on their mission and values, also what they're hoping to get out of it.

But also, I think their goals too, when we talk about LGBT history and my goals, also. I think for me, my main goal, when I talk to all groups, this isn't necessarily tailored, but it's like these are my main goals, is first to educate folks on LGBT history.

That's kind of why they're bringing me in as like the queer history expert, if you will. So, they want me to share these stories of LGBT history.

But then my second goal is to really inspire and empower folks to say, this isn't something that happened you know, 50 years ago that doesn't matter now.

Like it does matter now, and this is how you can play a part in continuing that history. This is what you can do to be an activist, and how you can continue paving the way forward.

So those are my two sort of goals. How it pops up differently for these different groups, is just tailoring it to different audiences.

So, like, what does it mean for a 10-year-old to be an activist is very different than someone who works at a corporate institution, or, let's say, like, a 20-year-old that's a college or a university. Just where they're at in life, their life experiences, it's all sort of tailored in that kind of way.

So, the things we'll talk about at, like, you know, high school groups or middle school groups, it's like, what are the things you're passionate about? You know, like, what do you love?

What are you excited about? Maybe we could get into a conversation about, like, what are your values? 

Because that is something they can understand, but really relates to activism as well, where someone maybe, let's say, at a corporate organization, I work with, like their like, their corporate goals, or their team's mission.

A lot of times it has to do with, like, DEI, which is sort of, like, hopefully, this episode doesn't get flagged by the government, because I said that term.

But you know, it's really important that work, DEI, and learning about LGBTQ history is important, but also for corporate organizations, how they're giving back to the community, I think matters for at least the groups that I work with that care about this history.

So, by working with me, that's one way that they're able to give back to their community, and me then inspiring them on, like, how they can continue to go out even after my presentation.

So, I would say the goals are the same, like, the the what is the same. It's sort of just the how I do that that gets a little bit tailored, just depending on the audience.

Rob Loveless

And you kind of touched upon the government there. And honestly, feel free to mention DEI.

This is a DEI-safe space, and I think I've said a lot worse about the current administration on here that they probably have bigger issues with. So, we should be fine from the flagging standpoint there.

Preventing Erasure of LGBTQ+ History (43:43)

Rob Loveless
But going off of, you know, your mention of that there, given the current political climate and the increasing efforts to erase LGBTQ+ history, why is it so important to preserve our history, and how can we as members of the community work to ensure that our history is not only remembered but actively shared with future generations?

Michael Venturiello

When I first started Christopher Street Tours and sharing LGBT stories, I did not consider that to be a radical act.

I thought it was an act, maybe selfishly, of, you know, self-preservation, of sharing something that I was passionate about and that I cared about.

Maybe secretly, I was just looking for community, like other members that also cared about this history, and I would meet them on tour. And that was really awesome.

As the political climate has turned and given where we are right now, every single thing that we say on our tours, I would think, is now considered a radical statement to some extent.

Just the fact that we're talking about trans people on our tour outside of the Stonewall Inn where they've erased the word transgender, that is a radical act of resistance and hope, though, at the same time.

Giving a tour, I remember this. It was the day after the election. I had a tour of two people that were coming from Europe, and I didn't know what to do.

I was completely distraught, maybe not surprised, but kind of, you know, like everyone was sort of in this headspace. And I emailed them, and I said, you know, listen, I don't know how you all are feeling.

I know I'm feeling a certain way. Let me know what you want to do if you want to reschedule or whatever. And they couldn't reschedule.

They said, you know, but we understand, Michael, you as a queer American, you know, I'm sure you're feeling a certain kind of way if you want to cancel.

And I said, you know what, let me just go do this tour. It might be a good way to, like, Get out of my bed. And it was helpful.

Meeting with that group and giving that tour, even then this was, like, before the inauguration, before the 100 days, felt like such an incredible act of resistance and resilience just to be there, just to be giving that tour, just to be sharing these stories.

And for me, it makes me think about what is in your sphere of influence, like, what can you do for your community? And for me, it's giving tours. Like, I'm a tour guide. I'm a gay tour guide.

I have these gay stories. So, like in a world where queer and trans people are being erased, my voice is my tool. Like my voice is my power, and I'm going to continue using it to the best of my ability to make sure that these stories are continuously uplifted and shared.

To your point about what can everybody else do, I think it's thinking about what is in your sphere of influence.

You know, not all of us are going to have the opportunity presented to us where we're rioting outside of a gay bar and the police are coming and there's bricks and we're throwing bricks through the window at, you know, like at Stonewall.

That opportunity is not common. That's like a once-in-a-lifetime thing, maybe.

But I think we have to think about, what are the opportunities that are presenting themselves to us right now, and how are we changing hearts and minds in our community?

And I have sort of like a little activist framework that might be helpful, and it sounds really simple, but I promise there's, like so many examples of this exact framework throughout history that are relevant and that work.

It is thinking about what you're passionate about. And I would imagine, for folks listening to this podcast, it is LGBT something, you know? Like history or trans rights or whatever it is.

So, like, what are we all passionate about? What is, what are our skills? Like, what are we really good at? What are things in our toolbox, like, in our wheelhouse that we just can do?

And then the third thing being, what is the vision that we want to see in the world? Like, what is the change that we want to see in the world?

And how do we sort of combine all of that to find, like, our purpose or our magic? For me, six years ago, I would have never said that being a tour guide was being an activist.

Like those, I thought activism was like raising your fist in the streets and chanting, and that is.

Like, that is activism 100%, but when I think about that framework, I think about, you know, I think I'm a good tour guide and a good storyteller, and I'm passionate about sharing LGBT stories.

And my vision is a world where people have access to LGBT history, and they are educated about LGBTQ topics, and they know a world full of LGBTQ people.

When you put all of those things together, that's being a gay tour guide. Like, that's what it is. That's my purpose. That's my magic. So, I think it's just doing a little reflection on what is it for all of you?

Like, what does that mean for the listeners to then be able to create positive social change in your own sphere of influence?

Rob Loveless

And how can people support your mission and get involved in preserving and sharing LGBTQ+ history?

Michael Venturiello

We say this at the end of tour as like a call to action is to pick at least one queer story that really resonates with them on the tour and then share that with everybody that they know.

Even if it's like the conservative granny, you know, at your Thanksgiving table, if it's safe to do that, of course.

But why I say that is because all of this anti-queerness, anti-transness, I think, comes from a place of people don't know what it's like to be a queer person.

They don't know what it's like to live as an LGBTQ person. And of course, they wouldn't if they're straight, you know? But sharing stories of LGBTQ people, it's again, it's not just a walking tour.

It's providing a window into an experience that someone would not be able to understand otherwise.

I can't imagine a world where, I mean, actually, this does happen. I'm thinking, I was gonna say, like, where these, like, big political leaders have queer or trans children or family members, and they would make all these anti-queer and trans laws.

But that does happen, you know? And that I don't think I will ever understand, but I say all of this to say I think just by sharing LGBT history, that doesn't have to be just me.

Like that is my personal mission, and it's my professional mission.

But if we can all take one story away from this, like, hey, did you know Pride, the global celebration that's celebrated by billions of people, was started by this one guy, Craig Rodwell, or, hey, did you know the guy that planned Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech was gay?

Like those little tidbits, even the other day it was happening. Someone was talking about some, like, Central Park history, and there's a statue of Hans Christian Andersen, and they were, the author, and they were talking about him.

And it was in, like, a professional tourism context, you know, they were sharing the story of this Central Park statue. And I kind of piped up, and was like, and he was gay, and everyone was like, Oh my God.

You know, it's just like, it really changes the narrative around, I think what it means to be a queer person, and we all have the power to do that.

How people can support me, like, personally in my mission and Christopher Street Tours, I think word of mouth is really powerful.

Like just telling people about the work that we're doing and maybe even giving us a follow on social media, we're on TikTok, and, you know, Facebook, Instagram, all the social medias.

Shameless plug, but that really does help us in terms of getting the word out, but it is bigger than us.

Like it's great when people can come on a tour, not just so they're coming on a tour, but so that they're learning, and then they can share that knowledge with their communities, wherever they're coming from.

Episode Closing (51:52)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, Death in reverse. Again, this card is telling us that we may be holding on too tightly to the past and refusing to change.

And it's important that we embrace change because life is all about cycles. You know, death and rebirth. 

And if we don't let go of someone or something, it could block us from moving on to something even better.

And as it relates to this episode, I think that Death in reverse is indicating that we may be holding on too tightly to the notion that, well, marriage equality was passed in 2015 so things are great for LGBTQ+ people.

And as we've seen in recent months, that's not the case. And I'm not saying that to be Mr. Doom and Gloom, but I am saying that to serve as a wake-up call.

You know, I said it in the episode about the Trump administration from 2017 to 2021, about how, as difficult as that was, maybe the silver lining for that was it made us, as LGBTQ+ people, realize that we can't be complacent and that our rights are never promised.

And whether it's fair or not, we do have to continue pushing for our equality.

Like Michael said in this episode, LGBTQ+ history did not end because marriage equality was passed. We are living in history as we speak.

And just like we had those figures before us, Sylvia Rivera, Craig Rodwell, Rustin, all these figures who came forward before us in the face of greater adversity, did not back down.

And it's great that we're holding on to their stories and that we remember them, and we should be sharing their history and their legacy, but the time has also come where we need to step up into those roles as well.

Whether or not we consider ourselves activists, we as one community, need to come together and really raise our voices to speak out against these injustices that we're seeing.

And for myself, personally, I think one really strong way to speak up is by the simple statement of our identity. You know, I'm gay, I'm queer, I'm trans, whatever our identity is.

When we speak that up, we're no longer just making a statement of who we are, we are saying, yes, we are gay, yes, we are queer, yes, we are trans, in the face of all this hate that is out there, and we are proud about that, and we are not going to back down.

And again, Death in reverse, this card is very action-oriented, so like Michael said, look at yourself, look at your talents and your skills and your strong suits, and find ways to leverage those in a way that allows us to continue advocating for the LGBTQ+ community.

Connect with Christopher Street Tours (54:01)

Rob Loveless

Well, Michael, thank you so much for coming on today and enlightening us with all this LGBTQ+ history. I definitely learned some things about, you know, the Pride movement I hadn't known before.

So, I really appreciate it, and thank you for all the great work you're doing.

As we're wrapping up here, can you tell all the listeners where they can connect with you, learn more about Christopher Street Tours, how they could even book a tour, maybe, if they're visiting New York City?

Michael Venturiello

Yes. So, you can find everything on our website, which is ChristopherStreetTours.com. You can also follow us @ChristopherStreetTours on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.

Rob Loveless

And after you're done listening to this episode, definitely connect with Michael. Check out Christopher Street Tours. So much interesting history there. You're gonna love it.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (54:39)

Rob Loveless

And for the podcast, you know the drill. If you have any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me, rob@ajadedgay.com.

For more information on this topic, episode resources, blog posts, links to socials, merchandise, all that fun stuff, you can visit the website ajadedgay.com.

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And remember: every day is all we have, so you gotta make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.

Outtake (55:58)

Rob Loveless

Please welcome Michael Venturiello. Did I say it right? Venturiello?

Michael Venturiello

Yes, that was, sorry, I wasn't even listening.

Rob Loveless

No worries. I'll try one more time. Venturiello, right? Okay, please welcome Michael Venturiello. Venturiello.

Michael Venturiello

That was good.

Rob Loveless

Second one better?

Michael Venturiello

Yeah.

Rob Loveless

Okay.

Michael Venturiello

And then what? Yes.

Rob Loveless

Oh, yeah. Just, please welcome Michael.

Michael Venturiello

And then I jump in, or no?

Rob Loveless

Yeah, yeah, hi, Michael. How are you today?

Michael Venturiello

I'm good, Rob, it's good to be here. Thanks for having me.