144. Bullies Beware: Confronting LGBTQ+ Bullying (with Mike Keller)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Mike Keller

I think it's human nature that people are abusing this political landscape as an excuse. Our politics say it's okay, so now it's okay for us to really put down other groups.

Episode Introduction (0:31)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless, and, today, I am a jaded gay because I went to get drinks with this guy I met on Bumble for a first date, and overall, the date was really good.

Like, we spent three hours talking, we got pretty deep about some things, which I wasn't totally expecting, but it was kind of refreshing to have those conversations, and we seemed like we were on the same page with things.

And then the last ten minutes of the date, it just totally went downhill. I don't even really remember how this came up in the conversation, but he started telling me that he didn't understand how people could just throw away a relationship after somebody cheats.

And he says, "Because fidelity is really hard." Like, that's not something I want to hear on a first date. And then right after that, he goes, "Like, I know myself, and I get flirty when I get drunk."

So, strike number two. And then as we're going to close out our cards, he's talking to somebody at the bar, and, like, not in a flirty way, just having a conversation.

But then they started talking about some guy who was standing near us, and they were checking out his butt.

And like, obviously, I've checked out a butt before. I'm not a prude, but I've never done that in front of somebody on a first date. So needless to say, there will not be a second date.

And it was just really disappointing, because, like I said, the whole date had been really good for, like, the two hours and 50 minutes before that, and then the last 10 minutes just downhill.

But the silver lining, at least, is that when he was telling me that he thought fidelity was really hard, I kind of tuned out because I knew that conversation was not going anywhere positive.

And I also heard at the bar they were playing Better the Devil You Know by Kylie Minogue, which, like, I was not expecting because for some reason, like we've talked about before, America has just never really embraced Kylie Minogue.

LGBTQ+ Bullying (2:09)

Rob Loveless

But you know what America has unfortunately embraced? Hostility towards the LGBTQ+ community.

I mean, we've been seeing it over the past few weeks, months, years, that there's just increasingly terrible rhetoric against the LGBTQ+ community.

We've seen an increase in anti-LGBTQ+ legislation, an increase in hate crimes, and it's really a scary time. And I personally blame that on the fact that we have a bully in the White House.

So today, we have a very special guest joining us to talk about bullying against the LGBTQ+ community, and some actions we can take to kind of dismantle some of that hate and be a little kinder in society.

But before we dive into the topic, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (2:53)

Rob Loveless

So, we drew a Major Arcana today, and that is The Wheel of Fortune, so this is indicating something big. This is the tenth card in the Major Arcana.

And in numerology, ten represents the completion of a cycle or chapter and the beginning of the new one.

So, when we draw this card, it's telling us that there are big changes and a turning point on the horizon. But it's all positive because we have good luck and karma on our side.

Specifically, The Wheel of Fortune is reminding us that the wheel is always spinning, which represents that life is constantly changing.

Sometimes when we spin the wheel, we don't like what it lands on, and sometimes we do. But this card is letting us know that even when things aren't going our way, it's not permanent.

The wheel will spin again and positive outcomes will return eventually because ultimately, everything is cyclical. Remember, ten signifies the ending of a cycle and the beginning of another one.

So, if we've been going through a rough time, this card is indicating that we're coming to the end of that chapter and the beginning of a new one.

And by understanding the cycles of life on a deeper level, we can build our own strength and resilience to overcome any hardships and move forward to a better tomorrow.

Guest Introduction (3:59)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am very excited to welcome our next guest. He is an author and speaker focused on raising bullying awareness. Please welcome Mike Keller. Hi Mike. How are you today?

Mike Keller

Really good. A beautiful day. How about you?

Rob Loveless

Doing well, doing well. Thank you for coming on today. I'm really excited to have you.

It's a really important topic we're going to be talking about today, especially in light of the current political and social climate.

So, it's going to be a heavier episode, but definitely something important to talk through, and I think it'll be empowering in the end.

Mike Keller

Yeah, absolutely. We stick together and everything works out.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, definitely. Well, to kick things off, can you introduce yourself to the listeners? Tell them a little bit about what you do, how you identify, your pronouns, background, all that fun stuff.

Mike Keller

Yeah, so my name is Michael Keller. I'm a writer. I've published five books so far, working on another one. I'm mostly talking about bullying. In all my books, there's some aspects of bullying.

One of the books is about coming out of the closet awkwardly because I came out later in life, in my 40s. 

And and I, I own a couple small businesses, so I work in the field, doing a bunch of we have a janitorial business and a consulting business, and I speak with a bunch of schools and in small companies about anti, about not bullying and and just being a better, better person.

And my pronouns are he/him, and I'm I'm married, and have a two-year-old, almost three, actually, three-year-old son.

And we're, we live in Connecticut, and we have a really a good life, I think, by helping others and it's a good way to live.

Rob Loveless

Awesome, I'm glad to hear that. And I like to ask all my guests today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Mike Keller

That's a good question. I think that I, I've since I was closeted so many years of my life.

I think that I'm more jaded now, but I, I think that I, I really try to focus on helping the younger groups, mostly, and even some.

I actually was in a senior citizen home talking to a couple small groups where they came out of the closet in the senior care homes, which was really amazing because they're they're actually starting to live their lives in their 70s.

So, I think that if we just talk to everyone and and be ourselves and not have that inner homophobia, which I had for so long, it kind of kind of make, kind of makes us a little more jaded.

Rob Loveless

I think sometimes too though, having that sense of jadedness can push us to try to create a more non-jaded world for the LGBTQ+ community.

Mike Keller

Absolutely, I agree.

Rob Loveless

Well, you touched upon your career a little bit. Can you tell us more about the work you're doing to address bullying and why this is such a focus for you?

Mike Keller

So, I talk a lot about bullying because I really believe there's a genuine need in the not only in schools but in the workforce.

So that's why, when I I do consulting and teamwork consulting with companies, we talk a lot about all the different types of scenarios, and LGBTQ+ and and being accepting, more accepting to to everyone. 

And I think by doing that, it opens up the eyes in the corporate world to be a little more open, especially in this nowadays, it's seems like it's.

Not to be too political, but with the politics going on, there's a there's a bigger need for it.

So, I try to talk to them about common sense and really just treating others how you want to be treated, and, more importantly, how you would want someone to treat your family in the business world.

So, bringing common sense into into the workforce is really the key that is unfortunately missing nowadays. So that's why I do a lot of the consulting work with with the companies.

Rob Loveless

And can you tell us about your own personal experiences with bullying and how that impacted your life?

Mike Keller

So I was, I was always in the closet going through school, and I always heard, and one of my one of your episodes was amazing because it just hit me so hard when the episode said, that's so gay.

And that was a big one. And when I was growing up in high school, that was, that was the biggest saying around and that was 30 years ago, and it would they were really saying that.

So that happened a lot, and those words, that's when I, I always used to think sticks and stones could hurt your bones, but names will never hurt.

Words are really more powerful than than the sticks or or that you could they're in the saying.

So, I really hid so much in school, not just for being gay, but for being myself and not wanting to do the things I really wanted to do.

I was nervous to do, I would I didn't even want to write, which writing was my passion, because I was afraid of writing sincerely and and true.

And then when I was another big thing that happened was when I was 14, I I grew up really Catholic, and I talked to my priest privately and told him about my feelings, and his words were that I'm going to go to hell unless I fight it.

And that at 14 years old, my father passed away a year earlier. He was kind of like the father figure, and I believed him. So, I carried that for years and didn't want to go to hell.

So that's when I realized, once I realized that the priest was really wrong, I started to change the way I thought and fix myself.

And now I try to put that onto and teach younger, mostly younger people, that they're not going to go to hell if there is a hell, which I don't believe.

But the I think that's, that's what really put me to have a passion for stopping bullying and and teaching common sense for for words, you know, mostly the words that we use.

The Current Landscape of LGBTQ+ Bullying (10:59)

Rob Loveless

And can you describe the current landscape of bullying faced by LGBTQ+ individuals, especially in schools and workplaces?

Mike Keller

So, in the the schools, it's sort of like in the the saying, I was talking with the high school recently, and the same thing with the words.

But now it seems like since the the past six months of election going on and all of that, it seems like people are more open to to bully LGBTQ+ people because they're because it's not.

It seems like it's more acceptable to bully. So, I think it's really key that kids are focusing on hearing from adults and from schools and teachers that their words really are damaging more, I think more so in the past six months than than the past few years.

So, I think that the landscape is a little bit harder right now, especially in the schools, but also in work. 

You know, there's, I have a really good friend that works in the government, and she had to take her pronouns off of her email, which really was a big deal for for her and her partner, who's trans because that's a big part of their their life.

So now you can't do that in the in the government job. So, government work is, I think the bullying is really happening right now, where I think that we have to really focus on showing on our own websites and showing on our our posts, that we just won't stand for that.

Politics & LGBTQ+ Bullying (12:53)

Rob Loveless

Like you touched upon, the political landscape has been very hostile recently.

You know, end of last year, there was another contentious presidential election, and with the current administration, we're seeing a lot of negative remarks.

So, I was wondering, do you think the rhetoric used throughout political ads and debates plays a role in anti-LGBTQ+ bullying?

Mike Keller

Oh absolutely. I think it's, I think it's human nature that that people are are using this political landscape as an excuse.

So, the excuse is that, hey, we're our politics say it's okay, so now it's okay for us to do, to do this, and to to really put down other groups.

But what I've always found, and even in politics, is it's the weak ones that do the bullying.

They're the ones that are they're bullying to push their insecurities onto others, and they're trying to go after all types of people, minorities, LGBTQ+, and and it's, it's the political landscape really does need to change.

I think we need to change close to homes in this, you know, politics that are in our own communities, all the way up to the to the major presidential race.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, because I think sometimes, we can make more of an immediate impact in our own communities and our own local governments that then kind of hopefully cascades upwards at the federal level.

Mike Keller

Absolutely, I agree 100% most and most people do not we. A lot of people don't vote locally.

We only tend to vote, a lot of people tend to vote only once every four years when we really should be more involved in the local politics and including school boards and so on.

Addressing LGBTQ+ Bullying (14:46)

Rob Loveless

Obviously, talking through all this, it can feel like a very bleak, depressing environment where there's a lack of control, and we might be wondering what we can do.

So, I'm curious, through the work you've been doing, what strategies have been most effective in reducing or preventing bullying of LGBTQ+ people?

Mike Keller

The main thing is, is to not be silent. Is to talk and and use common sense in really having pure curiosity to in the subject.

So, talking to our local, local leaders, getting involved, but going back to common sense, which we we tend not to do because we're we're all constantly so busy and listening to 24-hour news.

But if we just go back to the common-sense approach and use love and and curiosity and not be silent, but to to do our voice where we could be heard, on our posts, on our social media, in the way we talk to people every day, out in the streets, I think that that really makes a difference.

We change our little bubble, we change our worlds. And that really does. It's it's contagious. It'll go on to the next 10 and next 10 and and eventually, I think it'll all get so much better.

Rob Loveless

And I think right now, there's a lot of discourse, and discourse isn't always a bad thing, but it's how it's conducted.

So, there's a lot of really exaggerated, inflated statements, a lot of yelling, and a lot of just, you know, clickbait headlines people are making.

And I think it's natural to feel that anger or resentment or whatever, when you feel like your identity is under attack, but it sounds like what you're saying is we should really be trying to come from a place of curiosity.

So, for those people who may not understand us or try to empathize with us, if they could approach us from a place of curiosity, instead of, like saying, this doesn't exist.

There's only two genders, or there's only this, instead trying to question a place of, why do you feel this way? Or it's, you know, I'm not, this is my opinion on it, but why is this your opinion?

To kind of, really come to a place of healthy discourse and try to find some understanding in the middle.

Mike Keller

Absolutely, that that's the the only way and and that curiosity is, you know, prejudism are really a fear of the unknown.

So, when we're curious, we really do get rid of a lot of that hatred and disc-, like you said, discourse.

I'm learning Spanish right now, because I've always been curious of all the different countries, and I been, you know, I go to Ecuador quite a bit, and so I think by learning someone else's language, it's the same thing.

I'm curious because I really, I know that I'm not open to knowing a third of the world because I can't speak their language, so that curiosity of learning the language is really helping me to become a better person and to get to know 30% more people in the world.

And it's the same thing with our sexuality. If we could get people curious just to who we are and how, how we think it's they're going to understand that we're the same as them.

It's just who we love and is what, what makes us who we are.

You know, it's, it's not that, um, I think people need to be a little more open-minded and curious and not not afraid that we are trying to change them or change their the way they think.

We're just showing them who we are, and that that's where I think people need to change.

Rob Loveless

And how do you address the unique challenges faced by transgender and non-binary people in the context of bullying?

Mike Keller

So, I, what I, my major thing, where I think that it helps a lot, is the Trevor Project website. TrevorProject.org.

I, I go on that website and and show them that there are knowing that there's people out there that are there for them, and there's a community so they're not alone.

I think that really makes a big difference. And I I'm 100% believe in the Trevor Project.

There's so many others, kidshealth.org, safe spaces, there's a lot of great online resources, but I think that getting them to those resources and telling them to go into the safe spaces in the schools, and hopefully they they continue with that and talking to their people that they could trust 100% is how they we could help, especially the trans, all kids, but the trans kids right now because of the politics, are really the focus.

And I was talking to one person who thought that that she's not not a valid human being now.

I mean, it's so crazy with the way the news is portraying things, and they have to have that person that they trust, and also organizations like the Trevor Project that could really give them a lot of resources online, a lot of videos, a lot of education because in some schools, especially in rural areas, there's not a lot of places to go to.

The you know, fear, but that's what I think the online resources is a home run right right now.

Mike’s Books on Preventing Bullying (20:39)

Rob Loveless

And you wrote a couple books about LGBTQ+ bullying, including Room 308 and Bullies Among Us. So, can you tell us more about those?

Mike Keller

So, Bullies Among Us, it was a it's a book. It's half for a for adults and half for children, but they intermingle, and it's mainly about bullying in the workforce and bullying in school, which gives a little bit of it gives a but I interviewed a lot of people, and it gives their story.

So gives short personal stories of how people overcame and and went through the bullying. So, it's more of a nonfictional book.

Room 308 was my first fictional book, and it's a story about a vampire, which is a true story in my dreams.

He was in my dream since I was a teenager, Vladimir, who helps, helps Josh in the book, who happens to be me, to come out of the closet.

And it's a really fun, fast-paced book that helps kids to, mostly kids and teenagers, to get through that coming out of the closet.

So, it's basically a coming out of the closet awkwardly book that will help to let you know that a lot of the fears that you have and are really in our own heads, just like Vladimir was in my head, that you have a lot of inner fears that may not come true.

So, you should talk to your best friend or your teacher, your mother, whoever you really trust about what you're feeling.

And that's why I really wrote that book, because I thought that my family wouldn't accept me, and they actually love my husband more than me now.

So, so it's it was all fears in my own head that I had that never came true. So most, most of our fears are, are never gonna come into tuition.

So, I think it's important that you you read books or read articles and watch podcasts that that talk about it so that you're less fearful of of what you're going through.

How to End LGBTQ+ Bullying (23:05)

Rob Loveless

Like we talked about a little bit earlier, right now, the world can feel very overwhelming. There's so much going on, and especially in the realm of LGBTQ+ rights, a lot of concerns.

I think people aren't sure how they can get involved. And even if somebody's not a writer or an activist, I think we as a community all play a role in ending bullying. So how can we do that on a personal level?

Mike Keller

I say we really have to start on personal level is starting with our own words and being more cautious of what we say, and changing that bubble that we're we're in or even around our table.

You know, be careful of what you're what you're saying around other people. Like, for instance, that that's so gay, that's so important.

I think that the big thing is changing our words, changing our thoughts and then our words, and then getting involved with local communities, getting involved with schools, trying to get the homeless shelters just going out and doing some more volunteering in the world that we're in just our area, and then using our good words to chat.

That changes more than, I think, a lot of larger ways. I think if we're changing and just showing love and giving hugs and listening, I think the biggest part is when, when a kid comes to you, or if you're talking to someone who's having, who's who's going through situations, is we need to listen more and talk less. 

Just listen to what's going on and give more hugs. I was never a hugger until I was recently, but I think you need to hug more. The world needs more hugs. That's a that's a good a little piece of advice.

Rob Loveless

I love that. The world definitely does need more hugs. And something else that jumped out to me from your answer there is really watching the words we speak.

And especially when it comes to youth, I've heard before that, you know, kids are like sponges. They will soak up whatever they hear.

And for myself, personally, growing up, I heard some negative sentiments about the LGBTQ+ community. Like, you know, I think a child needs a mother and a father.

Or I like Ellen DeGeneres because she doesn't flaunt her lifestyle, or people having issues that a principal was openly gay because they thought it was a bad influence on kids.

And then when I came out at 21 suddenly, those, those messages were erased, where the people around me were like, oh, we support, you know, somebody getting married, or we support a gay person being a parent, you know, whatever.

And even though people might have changed their stances, that didn't erase the messages I had heard for years growing up that I was then internalizing.

And I think it goes beyond just our sexual orientation. For anybody's background, anybody's identity, you don't know what people have gone through, so be careful of what words you use, because you don't know how that might land with somebody or what they might internalize.

Mike Keller

Absolutely, I the internal homophobia is what I had, and it's from listening to like all those words growing up. I know that my my parents had nothing against well, back then they would was, everyone was tending to be against gays and lesbians.

Now, you know, it's more, it's all gay, gay, lesbian, trans. You have all, all the different aspects which every single one of them, there's some harsh words for every single group and and I think people are a little bit like you said, are starting to be a little more careful and change the way they think, but they still have from when they were younger, from what they heard, they sometimes will say things that will affect us tremendously.

As when you when you know, like when you said, when you came out at 21 you still, still today I'm sure hear different things that come back and give you flashes.

I hear it every day, different different things. People are a lot more careful around me because I only show love, and I think being silent is not the answer.

So, when I hear something like that, I tend to always say, hey, that's not really right to say. And I bring it to people's attention and make them feel a little uncomfortable, but hopefully, they won't do it in front of someone else.

Resources for LGBTQ+ Bullying (27:44)

Rob Loveless

Earlier on, you had mentioned the Trevor Project. I was wondering what other resources are available for LGBTQ+ people, especially LGBTQ+ youth who are experiencing bullying?

Mike Keller

So so online, kidshealth.org, is another great group to really get involved with. I I like I like them because it's, it's they do have local resources as well, but mainly I in the schools for the youth.

There are safe spaces, and there are typically two or three teachers, from what I found in going into different schools throughout the country, even in urban areas, there's there's teachers that are especially trained to talk with kids.

Even most are gay and gay, you know, LGBTQ+. But they don't need to be, and they really do, are trained to listen more. So, I think the school systems are a really good resource in public schools.

I'm not so certain, about private schools, but I'm sure there are some resources. But the school system, they do have great resources in the school, because not everyone will, especially a younger kid, will go to counseling.

Counseling is key, but if you can't afford it, or you don't want one parent to know, that's hard, so we're in the school, it's keeping it a little more separated from more private.

Rob Loveless

And what steps can allies take to effectively intervene and support someone who is being bullied for their LGBTQ+ identity?

Mike Keller

So, so I tell people, never be silent. You have to make the steps and stand up and talk with whoever is bullying has to be spoken with.

Most bullies will not get physical, and that that's been a fact that only I think it's 7% of bullies actually when confronted by an adult or another person, it's not, you know, they're not going to escalate.

Usually, they'll back down because of the way bullies are really weak. They're weaker. So, I think most bullies are once confronted, they will back down.

And hopefully, with the talking and discussing with them, you can change the way they think. I've seen so many times that I've spoken to to the who were considered the bullies, break right down, and really didn't know what they were doing.

A lot of times, especially in the youth, they don't realize how harmful they're being they and they have they say, oh, I thought it was funny, and so on, not understanding that they are really hurting the LGBTQ+.

So, I think speaking up and talking with that bully directly is the key with not being silent.

Rob Loveless

What words of encouragement do you have for those who are experiencing bullying?

Mike Keller

I think the biggest thing is to know that you're not alone, that we've so many of us have been through it and have been bullied.

I think knowing that there's a huge community there for you and with you, that's the key.

I think, knowing that you're not that you have people to talk to, even if you don't have anyone in person, having the online communities on social media, at you know, the Trevor Project, different organizations, but knowing that you're not alone is really the key.

And never give up, because you're stronger than you really may think you are. And once you get and it's not forever, that it will pass.

It gets it gets easier as we go through it, because once it's happened to you once, you're really a little bit more ready for the next time, and you're just going to keep growing and growing and knowing that since you're not alone, you're going to be able to help others in the future.

Episode Closing (32:02)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, The Wheel of Fortune.

Again, this card is really encouraging us to embrace the cycles of life and work to understand them on a deeper level, so that way we can build up our strength and resilience.

And just like The Wheel of Fortune reminds us things are temporary, so when things aren't going our way, when we're feeling down, we need to remind ourselves that we will move on from this and there will be a positive outlook on the horizon.

And I think this card goes in hand with the metaphor we've talked about on quite a few of our episodes about the pendulum swinging back and forth politically speaking.

And right now, we definitely are in a backwards swing. And like Mike talked about today, a lot of the rhetoric politically speaking has a really negative impact on society of how the LGBTQ+ community is treated, and right now, we do see an increase in bullying in our schools and even workplaces.

So, it's really important that we're keeping ourselves safe and developing safe spaces for those around us. 

We need to utilize those resources to take care of ourselves if we are experiencing bullying and also try to find ways to feel empowered to speak up against bullying if possible.

And remember your safety is always the most important. So only do so if there's a safe way to stand up for yourself. And I really like that expression Mike said: the world needs more hugs.

So, I think that's really encouraging us to spread some kindness in the world. It's really easy when we're feeling like we're under attack, to just lash out and use harsh language and critique and yell and scream and throw a fit.

Believe me, I want to do that, and sometimes behind closed doors, I do.

But ultimately, bringing that conversation out into public, it's it's really not going to be productive, and there are going to be people there who will never understand where we're coming from and don't care to understand us either.

So, while we're in this difficult climate, I think it's really important that one, we're promoting kindness within our community, and two, putting kindness out in the world.

Even those who disagree with us. Like Selena Gomez said, kill 'em with kindness. We are not going anywhere.

And no matter how much they attack us, how much they try to revoke our rights, we will still be here because queer people have always been there. It's been a very challenging time, but like The Wheel of Fortune reminds us, there's going to be another spin, and we have good luck and karma on our side, so we are about to move forward to a more positive outcome.

So really, as challenging as it may be, try to build up your strength and resilience, remain optimistic, and as always, be kind.

Rob Loveless

Well, Mike, thank you for coming on today and sharing these important insights. It's a really tough world right now, so I think it's really great advice you gave to give the world more hugs. Really watch our words and practice promoting kindness, both within our community and outside of it.

An Excerpt from Bullies Among Us (34:31)

Rob Loveless

As we come to the end of the episode, I was wondering, can you read us an excerpt from one of your books?

Mike Keller

Oh, absolutely. So, in Bullies Among Us, actually, it's one little sentence actually explains it all:

"We cannot protect our children from everything bad that will happen to them, but we can send them out into the world better prepared."

That one sentence and in the book, really sums up what we talked about, actually.

So, it was a good sentence that we really just need to focus on teaching them and and then letting them fly, letting them to grow and help others.

Connect with Mike (35:12)

Rob Loveless

Well, Mike, thank you again for coming on today. Can you please tell the listeners where they can connect with you, find your books, find resources, all the things?

Mike Keller

Oh yeah. Base, it's pretty simple for for me, it's michaelshawnkeller.com is the website where all my my books and are and social media is on there.

And Facebook and Instagram, it's @michaelshawnkeller on those. So, it's really, I keep it simple with my name.

Rob Loveless

And after you're done listening to this, definitely connect with Mike. Check out his book, show him some support.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (35:43)

Rob Loveless

And you know the drill for the podcast. If you have any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

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Mmm-bye.