143. Heal from Religious Trauma (with Ann Russo)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Ann Russo

You're telling someone they're wrong just because they exist. I mean, what a perfect means to control people.

Episode Introduction (0:25)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay just because this past week was really rough.

I feel like just a lot of like bullshit rose up. Definitely one of those weeks where I was just going, Oh Jesus Christ with everything that happened.

Religious Trauma (0:46)

Rob Loveless

And I mean, how fitting, because today we have a very special guest on to talk about overcoming religious trauma, which we've touched upon in the past.

Especially for the LGBTQ+ community, balancing sexuality and faith can be very challenging, especially since some religious institutions really have not been affirming of a lot of us.

So, we're gonna get into it today. But first, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (1:13)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is the Nine of Swords. As you remember, Swords is tied to the element of air. It's masculine energy, which is very action-oriented, and Swords is tied to our guiding principles, thoughts, ideas, and all forms of communication.

And in numerology, nine is telling us that we're just about at the end of a cycle or chapter. We can see completion on the horizon, but we just have to push a little harder to get a little bit further.

But the Nine of Swords, it's indicating that we might actually feel anxious or worried. And this anxiety can prevent us from seeing the reality in front of us.

Specifically dark thoughts and worries may be weighing so heavy on us that we're struggling to move forward. But the more we let these fears and concerns get the best of us, the more they rule our lives.

In fact, the more we obsess over these things, the more likely it is that we create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So, it's important that we approach our situations with a new perspective as we work to find ways to mitigate our despair.

And also, don't be afraid to reach out for help when things feel too heavy.

Guest Introduction (2:16)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am very excited to welcome today's guest. She is a religious trauma and queer empowerment specialist and founder of AMR Therapy.

Please welcome Ann Russo. Hi Ann. How are you today?

Ann Russo

I'm great. Hi Rob. Thank you so much for having me on the show today.

Rob Loveless

Of course. Thank you for coming on. This is a really important topic. Actually, in the past, I haven't covered it too, too much in past episodes.

We've kind of, you know, touched upon the surface level that obviously religious trauma is something that a lot of LGBTQ+ people may struggle with.

So, I'm really excited to have you on to really go into a deep dive because you've done so much work dedicating yourself to helping people overcome this.

So, it's going to be a heavier episode, but before we get into, like, too much heavy stuff here, can you just introduce yourself to the listeners?

Tell them about how you identify, pronouns, your background, all that fun stuff?

Ann Russo

Sure, absolutely. My name is Ann Russo, and she/her are my pronouns, and I identify as queer. And I am a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and the founder and CEO of AMR Therapy.

Rob Loveless

And I like to ask all my guests, today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Ann Russo

That's a tough one today. I'm gonna go with non-jaded right now, right now. That could change periodically throughout the day, though.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Well, I'm glad to have a non-jaded gay on today because I am a little jaded myself, so we can balance each other out today.

Ann Russo

Gotcha.

Rob Loveless

Awesome, awesome. Well, just getting right into the episode, then you've done a lot of great work, which I'm excited to share with everyone.

So, can you tell us a little bit about your own experiences and how you became a mental health professional, specifically specializing in religious trauma, queer issues, and sex positivity?

Ann Russo

Yeah, sure. So, I was raised in a queer household in the 80s and 90s, and I learned from a young age that Christian conservatives were very anti-gay.

So, like, you know, you'd see it on the talk shows, and, like, it was just this big movement, this huge movement against the LGBTQ community. I was very confused as to why that was the case.

And when I was 18, I joined a fundamentalist Christian church, and I did that as an out person, but I did it to try to understand, well, why do they hate because that's what's my perception.

Why do they hate the LGBTQ folks? What's going on here? So, I was really on a mission to understand what was happening.

And it taught me so much. I mean, I can't even begin to tell you, because I didn't have the the same background or baggage of having that faith since I was little.

I felt like I was able to go into it in a more objective way, and I ended up getting my degree in religious studies. I got a master's in theology, and my focus has always been on queering Christianity and what that means.

And I thought I was going to be a theology professor, but I really wanted to figure out some way to, like, help LGBTQ folks in the intersection of religion.

And so, I went on and I got my master's in social work, and I dedicate my my work to sex positivity, the intersection of religion and sexuality, overcoming trauma and shame regarding religion.

Just see a lot of pain in the community, the LGBTQ community, as it relates to religion. And I want to help heal some of that pain.

Rob Loveless

And I like that phrase you use there, queering up Christianity, because it seems counterproductive almost that you see so many religious institutions saying all are welcome, but you don't see the asterisk at the end there where they're kind of saying, unless you're, you know, this group, this group, or this group.

And obviously, for myself growing up religious, I didn't really think twice about that until I got older and recognized my sexuality a little bit more, and there is a lot of rejection, you realize, as a queer adult growing up from a religious background, and especially in this day and age.

And obviously, some people experience much greater rejection than others.

What is Religious Trauma? (6:38)

Rob Loveless

So, going off of that, can you tell us how you define religious trauma, and how does it differ from other forms of trauma?

Ann Russo

So religious trauma often looks like PTSD.

So, there'll be guilt and shame. Specific to religion would be fear of punishment from faith or divine retribution, identity confusion, relationship strain, and you're going to be experiencing the anxiety, panic, nightmares, hypervigilance, self-doubt, depression, substance abuse.

So that's how that's going to show up, and it's all going to be within the context of faith or religion.

Rob Loveless

And I think in a lot of LGBTQ+ experiences, there is some form of rejection, whether it's at societal level, familial level, religious level.

Depending on who you're talking to, you might have a mixture of the three.

So, a lot of those symptoms you've talked about, you know, such as things like substance abuse, ways to cope that way, I think we see that showing up in other forms of rejection too.

And in past episodes, we've talked a little bit about certain inequalities and some rejection at societal level.

But can you share some examples of how rigid or harmful religious teachings can influence someone's view on their sexuality or sexual health?

Ann Russo

Yeah. I mean, it's, as a positive, we're seeing these numbers shift. So, it was much more intense in the 80s and the 90s, and people were really having a lot of religious trauma.

If you were a gay person, you likely had religious trauma. And now it's showing less and less because there are more affirming churches.

So, the number is going down, and that is a positive thing, but what, but we do see high levels of distress, especially what I call high-control religious environments.

And also, where we see with with the highly controlled religious environments, the the folks do tend to use some negative coping skills, which reinforces the idea that something's wrong intrinsically with their sexual orientation.

So there, so it's a very interesting way it confuses, and that's why you see so many folks question, well, is this, is this wrong for me to be gay?

I'm do like they usually really struggle with navigating their orientation, their religiosity, and how they're coping with that loss of community and that rejection.

Rob Loveless

I know before you said that sometimes religious trauma shows up similarly in ways that you would see with PTSD.

So, I was wondering, can you a little bit more specifically tell us some of the most common signs or experiences people face when dealing with religious trauma?

Ann Russo

A lot of anxiety. A lot of shame and guilt, depression, higher suicidal ideation, and more substance abuse.

As people start to reconcile their faith and their sexuality and whatever that might mean for them, you will see all of those things decrease.

And also, self-esteem and self-worth is also highly impacted by the religious trauma.

Understanding the Context of Religion (9:57)

Rob Loveless

And you talked before about queering up Christianity.

My question is, do you think there is a healthy way for somebody who is LGBTQ+ who may have some religious trauma growing up, but still wants to have some relationship with faith, is there a way to kind of reconcile the two and make it work?

Ann Russo

Oh, absolutely. I work with people all the time to do that. That's one of the, that's one of the, the main things that I do as a mental health provider, and I've, I've written on that, and I presented on that, and I really do believe that some folks, it's, it really is a false choice, like you can't choose your religiosity and you can't choose your sexual orientation.

So, they're in this limbo space, right? So, I think it's key for folks that want to hold on to those beliefs, or those beliefs are really ingrained in them, that we work together to see if there's something that makes sense when it comes to the to religion and their sexual orientation or their gender identity. 100%, Rob. Yeah.

Rob Loveless

And I think, to your point, you kind of touched upon this. I feel, personally that with religion, I think there are the religious beliefs that are actually the religion, and then the beliefs that are more so the political side of religion.

So, it sounds like maybe part of that there is finding those spaces where they affirm your religious beliefs without the negative political connotation there.

Ann Russo

Yeah, it's one of the things that I think is really important to do, is to understand where someone has received these beliefs. So, it's like, let's say that some it's wrong to be gay. God doesn't want us to be gay. 

And I'm just going to use Christianity because that's my strongest, uh, education background and experience. God, the Bible says it's wrong. God doesn't want to be gay.

Okay, so let's talk through that. Where did you hear that? Did you read it yourself? Did you ever look at cultural implication? Why did it end up in there? What is it actually saying?

So, like, there's a huge education piece around it as well, because oftentimes people haven't even read this the scriptures themselves, or understand the content, the context of the scriptures, but it's been fed to them since, you know, birth, that this is wrong, this is a sin.

So, they don't even think that it's something to question, right? So, education is a big piece of this. And I think there is, there is politicizing 100%.

I think that we, what we need to do is try to understand the scriptures in in their context, and also understand that we're not going to win a fight.

There are over 20,000 different denominations of Christianity. They're all using the same book. They're all coming up with different ideas of what means what.

There's a few tenants that are pretty streamlined with most Christian denominations, and that has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

So, I think we can, we work together to see what makes sense for a person. And there are plenty of affirming Christian churches, groups, and people that are following the Bible too.

Rob Loveless

You spoke about understanding the context of the scriptures. Can you kind of expand upon that a little bit?

And I know we're using the example of Christianity here, and I think that's a pretty hard-hitting one because that's where you, I feel you hear a lot of the negative connotations with, you know, sexual orientation, sexuality, and LGBTQ+ identity.

Ann Russo

Yes. So, with scriptures, I learned this young when I first started getting kind of involved in the church, like 18, 19, and trying to see what's going on. I can, I'm, people will just yell scriptures at you.

Well, and John did this. It says did this. And it's very hard to like, defend a position. So, what I did was I said, I'm never gonna memorize this book. But where did this book come from? Why is it here?

What is the history of this book? Who said this? Why did they say it? Right? So, I did all my studying around contextualizing scripture.

So, what, what, what I would suggest for folks to do is, if you're reading something like, let's say man shall not lie with man. Okay, this is in Romans. So, you'd look at it and say, why is this book in this in this Bible? 

How did this Bible come to be? Is this actually the word of God, or is it a letter of Paul? I mean, there's, we could get into a lot of depth here, but then you take that and you say, Okay, well, what's the original language?

What does it mean? How has it been translated before? When did it start being translated this way? So, you just do, like, a deep dive. Is there any other discussion about this anywhere else in the Bible?

How is it discussed? When is it discussed? So, you really just spend time educating yourself, you know, and understanding that, oh, well, this came out of the first century Rome. It was written in Greek.

These words are not current Greek words. Scholars 100 years ago decided this was going to mean homosexuality.

Before that, it meant this. So, it's like, you can go, oh, like, what is it even talking about, right? So, it's like it's doing that deeper dive into that scripture.

And I think that oftentimes we need folks who studied this to kind of help, help us, because we don't who you're not going to know necessarily what to look at or what to look for.

But if you do that, you'll kind of see that there are many things that can be perceived as sinful or wrong, and things those same things can be perceived as positive, like there's so many contradictions in the scripture.

And it's, it's a book that was put together, you know, in 320 AD. It wasn't written by God and handed over to people. So, understanding what you believe and why you believe it is key.

Rob Loveless

And to your point, too, talking about, you know, some of the Greek words there. In 2018 and 2019, I really kind of went through a little period of trying to understand my sexuality and religion.

I mean, I'd been out for a few years, but the religion piece of it really weighed on me then. And I looked, you know, tried to do a little bit of research there.

And I think when it talks about translations that word homosexual, like you said, that wasn't a word that was used in the Bible until the 1800s.

I think, if I remember correctly, the original translation of that word, like verbatim translation, was man bed, or something which is very broad, like that.

Ann Russo

Yes. Yes, man bed. What does that mean? You know, like we can just interpret that however we want to really interpret that.

Rob Loveless

Exactly. So, it leaves a lot of gray area.

And throughout the Bible, it's interesting too, because there's very few mentions of anything that can relate to homosexuality, but there's a lot more mentions about, you know, greed, divorce, all these things.

And obviously, I'm not condemning divorce. There's different reasons for people to separate, whatever, but there's all these other things that appear more in the Bible, and yet, a certain group of very extremist people are focusing on very few mentions to kind of oppress a certain group of people.

Ann Russo

The marginalization of people through the Bible has always been. You know, the Bible was used to defend slavery and the 18, early 1800s.

I mean, people, pastors would use the Bible to say, this is why it's okay for us to enslave people. This is why it's okay for us to enslave Black people. It says it right here in the Bible.

So, this, this is not a new playbook, and now all of a sudden that doesn't mean what it meant 100 years, 150 years ago, because it doesn't work with the narrative of the culture of today, right?

We know that people should not be enslaved. That's that is immoral, right? So, I think that there's always a group that is marginalized so people can feel superior to others.

I think that's partially human nature as well. But I think that one of the key things that we need to do, if we are folks that want to hold on to faith, our Christian faith, is Christian faith is based upon Jesus.

So, let's figure out who, who Jesus is. What did Jesus do? What did Jesus teach? How did Jesus act, you know? And I, because the rest of, the rest of the Bible is written by people exploring God, you know.

It's the Bible, to me, is man's quest to understand God, human quest to understand God. So, to say this is the word of God is is very tricky, because what is the word of God?

The Bible did not come together as a full book. So, if one book of the Bible says this is the word of God, it's only referring to that one particular book, right?

So, it's like they're so it's like people take it as like this, this large piece that came together perfectly. And that's just not the case.

And even when you're looking at things like sexuality or marriage or divorce, like you were saying, what was going on in the time period and what was the cultural norms of the time period that this was written in?

Those are very important things to look at. So homosexual sex was a common thing back in that era, but it didn't have anything to do with sexual orientation.

So, to condemn sexual orientation doesn't even make sense based on what was going on culturally at that time.

They may be condemning, um, orgiastic rights to, like, for there they were using orgiastic rights and homosexual sex as a way to worship another deity.

So, when you look at the context more like the Old Testament, it's like, Wait a minute. This isn't actually even about relationships or sexual orientation.

This is about worshiping a false idol or another deity. It has nothing to do with sex, right? So, it's like, that's why it's so important. You can't just pull out this headline of how it was written today.

You know, like you have to go deep into it. And I would encourage people to go deep into it because that's a pretty big statement that's being made there. This is, who you are is sinful.

You can't just take that at face value. Well, why? Why, why is that? Why are you saying this right? So, I take that very seriously to educate yourself before you condemn yourself.

And also, before you throw away a religion that might mean something to you and be important to you, to see if there's a way that that actually makes sense. That loving Jesus. That like what is following Jesus?

Sexuality and Religion (21:18)

Rob Loveless

Like you said, educating yourself through knowing the context of the Bible really helps unravel some of the cultural meaning at that time that doesn't hold up today, 2000 years later.

So, in addition to educating ourselves, what are some other steps you recommend for someone beginning to untangle the shame or guilt they feel around their sexuality due to religious trauma?

Ann Russo

I do think that it's a great idea to go to a therapist who's versed in this stuff.

And if that's not something that you can find, I would suggest looking for even an online community of LGBTQ Christians or other folks that are going through similar experiences.

Support of other individuals is really important when you're going through shame or trauma. People with similar experiences and people that have healed from those experiences.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Studies prove it. Studies show us that there is a lot of healing that can take place here. We just have to step into that healing.

Rob Loveless

Beyond just sexual orientation, I feel with certain religions, and I'm speaking from the mindset of growing up Roman Catholic, sexuality in general is something that's not really, you know, it's kind of taboo.

For example, sex really is viewed as, all right, you need to basically conceive life. That's the meaning of sex.

So even if you are a straight married couple, if you are having any sexual act that does not result in procreation, you are quote-unquote sinning.

So, how does embracing sex positivity help individuals reclaim their sexuality and improve their overall mental health?

Ann Russo

Well, how does breathing help you survive in life? I mean, sexuality is a natural part of being a human being. We are built to be sexual. Our sexuality is part of who we are.

Now, I want to make it clear that I'm not dismissing people that are asexual because that's a sexuality as well.

But sexuality is an intrinsic part of who we are. So basically, what you're asking me is, how do we accept how we're built is kind of like what I'm hearing you say. Like, how do we accept it?

Well, unfortunately, it is work. But I I've leaned into, I was, if I'm, if I'm created by a creator God, okay, that's my belief system. Why, why would God make me wrong? You know?

Why would something be an intrinsic piece of of who I am? And also, I would take a look again, and I always go back to the education piece. Where is this coming from?

I know, like, when you're talking about Catholicism, and I got my master's in theology at a Catholic University, so I hear, I love this argument. Exactly so, but where is it coming from?

Like, where it's coming out of philosophy within the theology of Catholicism. But is it in scripture? Like, where have you seen that in scripture? How is that scripture being used? How is it being understood? 

And I can even make an argument that there are people in Scripture that are extremely sexual, that are favored by God, you know. So, it's it, I think that it's just a means of control.

I don't think it's necessary. It has anything to do with with God. It's human, a human need to control others, and what better way to do it than something that is so natural for us to be sexual?

You're telling someone they're wrong, just because they exist. If you do this and this and this, then you're okay.

So, follow this, follow, fall in line with this, and then you'll be okay. I mean, what a perfect means to control people.

Rob Loveless

And I'm interested too in how religion and sexuality shows up globally. Because I know it seems like within Western culture here, there really is an emphasis on this purity culture, even outside of religion.

Ann Russo

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we're so impacted by whether we like it or not.

We are a Christian nation, like we can say we're free, but I think, as we see even right now, no, this is, this is a nation built under Christianity.

And we, we want religious freedom, but it's the Christian religion that gets to be the primary focus of our laws and how we treat other people.

No one's saying, well, based on the Buddhist belief system, religious liberty means this, this, and this, right? So, whether or not you're identifying as Christian, Christianity is impacting you here period.

As far as other faith systems, there is sexuality that are, there is sex and sexuality talked about in other faiths, and usually even like in Buddhism and Hinduism.

It is very much about conserving your sexual energy and yourself and what you're doing with your seed and how you're being sexual and how you're communicating to people.

And so there, there is in all the major world religions there, there are plenty of prohibitions around sex and sexuality. There are religions that there aren't, but those are not the major world religions.

Politics and Religion (26:54)

Rob Loveless

You kind of touched upon there, especially in the United States, we are a Christian nation founded upon Christianity, and we're definitely seeing that in the current administration.

So, given the current political climate and the callous implementation of so-called religious freedom laws, what are some ways listeners can protect their mental health and push back against this adversity?

Ann Russo

That is a wonderful question, Rob, because frankly, I think we can only do this by community.

We have to find the area in which we're passionate because right now, I think what is happening is that this administration is trying to confuse us by doing so many things at once that is like a psychological warfare on people that don't agree with this administration, and we become numb and and complacent and just overwhelmed, right?

Like it's just, it's just too much to take in. So, what I would suggest is find, find the issues that are most that you have the most passion about.

Whether it's around sexual orientation, or undocumented folks, or it's about the economy, or breaching of data, whatever you're feeling passionate about, spend your energy working with a group that's doing that work.

Because I think we all, I think, care about all of those things, but we can't take them all on, and that's how they win, right? We're spreading ourselves too thin.

So, find your group, find your people. If people could do this, then I think we would find a huge coalitions that are really pushing back on all these issues.

So go out there and also taking care of your mental health. And I'm going to be really honest, it's tough to do.

This is something we've never experienced in America before, where we have the federal government assaulting groups.

We've always had the federal government fight for the marginalized, against the states. This is the opposite. This has never happened in our history.

So, if you're overwhelmed, if you're having psychological warfare happening for yourself, it is okay, it is normal, it is natural.

Some people have said, I feel like it's COVID, like that, psychological warfare that's going on. Be educated, absolutely. Don't doom scroll.

Try to do some things where you can relax as best as you possibly can. And also staying diligent is important because we don't know, we don't know how far this can go, and we have to keep ourselves safe too.

Queering Up Christianity (29:44)

Rob Loveless

And I think as part of that, you were talking about coming together as a community and focusing on our passion areas.

You talked earlier about queering up Christianity. Can you tell us a little bit more about that concept and how we can all play a role in that?

Ann Russo

So, the queering of Christianity is, there are queer people in Christianity. Okay, so like, like, if you go, and if you, like, go into the Bible and look at it and study it, you you'll see queer relationships.

You'll see loving relationships between same, same gender. And you'll, you'll see conversations even around gender identity, and so look for those stories.

And I think when I think of queering Christianity, I want to take it a step further, just based on what you were saying, you know, of bringing the political piece.

Liberation theology, like queer theology, queering Christianity is underneath the umbrella of liberation theology, and that's what we need right now. We need liberation.

We marginalized communities need liberation from those that are trying to hold us down and harm us and use us as scapegoats for horrific political agendas and personal self-interests.

And let's, let's turn to as a, as a, as a, if you are a Christian or have faith in some of that. Who is Jesus? Jesus is the liberator of all liberators. So, it's like you can hold on to the revolutionary Jesus.

Jesus was a revolutionary, and we need to be revolutionaries too, and that was how I would queer Christianity, and that's how I would go under that liberation theology because we're looking at any marginalized group.

Not just us queer folks, because there's other marginalized groups right now, they're being heinously attacked.

Rob Loveless

As we come to the end of this episode, what advice do you have for listeners trying to balance their healing journey with external pressures from family, community, or religious institutions?

Ann Russo

I'm always going to come back to finding like-minded people. It's very important to find like-minded people.

I know that there are some folks that that is difficult based on where they live, where they may work, and who their family might be.

I get that, but we do have an access on some social media platforms, Bluesky, for example, YouTube, or if you want to go down to the Facebook journey, go ahead.

But there are people that are like-minded, and it's very important to connect with those people. That is really good for our mental health.

So, whatever you can do to form some kind of connection with like-minded people is key. Keep yourself safe.

Episode Closing (32:35)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, the Nine of Swords. You know, a lot of us may have some form of fear instilled in us from growing up in a religious society that's told us we're wrong for existing.

And this fear can prevent us from seeing reality and block us from moving forward.

And like Ann said, we need to understand the context around the aspects of religion that are commonly used to oppress us because if you really look at the specific passages, you realize that they don't make much sense, and there's a lot of gray area over what it actually means.

So, for those of us who still want to have a relationship with our faith, let's take a new approach to understand certain contexts and find affirming resources and spaces that accept us and welcome us just as we are.

And taking it a step further by educating ourselves around the context of what certain religious texts say, not only can we overcome the anxiety and shame and depression we may feel, but we may also be able to educate those who have weaponized their religion against us so that we can queer up Christianity like Ann said.

Because at the end of the day, queer people are everywhere, including in religion. 

Connect with Ann (33:38)

Rob Loveless

Ann thank you so much for coming on today.

This was, I mean, a very heavy topic to talk about, but I think you really shine a lot of light on it, and have a way of making us feel optimistic about the future and showing us that there is healing and light at the end of that tunnel.

So, with that in mind, can you please tell all the listeners where they can learn more about you and connect with you? Plug all the things.

Ann Russo

Yeah, absolutely. So, to work with me. You can go to annrusso.org or if you're interested in receiving therapy or support from my sliding scale practice, you can go to amrtherapy.com.

Wonderful providers there that focus on the queer community and supporting marginalized communities. We're here. We are here to help. We work with you.

You don't have to do this alone, and if we can't help you, we can at least maybe put you in the direction of somebody or some organization that can. We are all in this together.

Rob Loveless

And after you're done listening to this episode, definitely go check out Ann's website. I've included links to it in the episode show notes. There's just a ton of great resources there. Definitely recommend it.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (34:53)

Rob Loveless

And you know the drill. For any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Five stars only. I greatly appreciate it.

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Mmm-bye.

Outtake (36:25)

Rob Loveless

And beyond just sexuality, I'm sorry. It's a Friday. It's been a long weekend. My brain's fried. That's why, that's why I never do live recordings. I'm like, all right, I need a lot of editing so I don't trust myself live.

Ann Russo

All good. Good, then you can get rid of some of my ums.

Rob Loveless

No worries. I get it. I have so many ums and you knows, so I usually try to clip those out when I go through.