139. You're Probably Gayish (with Mike Johnson & Kyle Getz)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Mike Johnson

We end every episode with our gayest and straightest, and it's very much meant to poke fun at the fact that the only thing that makes you gay or straight is who you bang.

Kyle Getz

And I think part of just how Mike and I deal with things in general is just through humor. And so, it made sense to bring that into our conversations.

I think the gay community has used humor as a coping mechanism for all the trauma we go through.

Episode Introduction (0:42)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a non-jaded gay because this past weekend, I got a lot done.

You know, I did some blog posts for the podcast, did a couple transcripts, some podcast editing, got an episode done.

Grad school-wise, did a few discussion boards, finished some quizzes for my accounting class, wrote a final paper. So, it was super busy, to say the least, but ultimately productive.

I was feeling a little burnt out, so I decided to treat myself with an iced brown sugar-shaken espresso. Just like Sabrina Carpenter, I love shaking that ess' 'cause that's that me.

And yes, even though it's February and cold in Philly, it is never too cold for me to have an iced coffee. And that's a stereotype I'm not embarrassed to fess up to.

Gay Stereotypes (1:28)

Rob Loveless

And how appropriate, because today we have two VIP guests joining us to talk all about gay stereotypes, the funny and the damaging.

And for me personally, this is one of those surreal podcasting moments, because I really look up to these guys. I love their podcast.

I've been listening to it for like, five years now, so to have them on the show, I just I'm fangirling, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

I'm super excited to welcome them on but before we do, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (1:58)

Rob Loveless

So, the card we drew for this episode is the Eight of Cups. As you'll remember, Cups is tied to the element of water. It's feminine energy, so it's asking us to reflect and meditate. And Cups is tied to our emotions. 

And you can think of our emotions flowing freely like water. And in numerology, eight is symbolic of infinity, success, and power.

And if you turn the number eight sideways, it kind of resembles an infinity sign, so that energy is constantly flowing through us.

And when we pull the Eight of Cups, it's telling us that we're moving on from disillusionment and false promises.

In traditional depictions of this card, we see a man walking away from eight cups because he's sampled each one and decided none of them satisfy him, meaning they're not aligned to the path he's on.

His intuition is telling him none of these are serving him, and so he's decided to walk away. So, putting this into practice, we may be faced with situations that aren't satisfying us emotionally.

So, we need to reflect inward and trust our intuition to guide us forward to a cup that's more satisfying for us.

And while it can be scary and maybe even sad to walk away from someone or something that's become familiar, doing so will ultimately put us on a path that's more aligned to the future we want, which will bring us joy and contentment. 

Guest Introduction (3:08)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am super excited to welcome today's guests.

They are absolute legends in the podcasting world and recently published their first book. Please welcome Mike Johnson and Kyle Getz.

Hi Mike. Hi Kyle, how are you today?

Mike Johnson

Hey, good Rob. Thanks for having us.

Rob Loveless

Of course. Thanks for coming on today. I was saying, you know, before we started recording, I'm a big fan of Gayish so I was so excited and so grateful when you both agreed to come on.

And we have so much fun stuff to talk about today, all things stereotypes, ins and outs.

So, I guess just to kind of kick it off, do you mind just introducing yourself to the listeners? Your names, pronouns, how you identify, background, all that fun stuff?

Mike Johnson

Sure, yeah. Mike Johnson, he/him pronouns. I'm gay as hell. And background, I'm a software developer living in Seattle, Washington. 46 years old.

I've been married twice, once to a woman, once to a man. Now I'm now with a new a new a new guy.

Kyle Getz

And I'm Kyle. Kyle Getz, he or they pronouns, and I'm deffo gay. And yeah, we're both here in Seattle.

I live on my own with a dog named Reynolds, who is the best. He's named after Ryan, and I am single, just to put that out there for everyone.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. And I will be tagging, you know, both your Instagrams in the show posts, so, everybody, go slide into Kyle's DMs after.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, absolutely.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Well, before we get into the episode, I do like to ask all my guests, today are you jaded or non-jaded gays and why?

Mike Johnson

Oh, I mean, super jaded, but that's because of the political climate, I think, more than anything. Like I just what fresh new hell do we wake up to every day in this country?

Kyle Getz

Yeah, I'm def definitely jaded. I agree for the very same reasons. I think we've... what is there to hope for? But fresh horrors every single day.

And hang in there, because we need LGBT people more than ever to be gay, happy, and living their lives.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, definitely. And I, you know, obviously political climate is very, weighs very heavy right now.

But I was kind of laughing, just because I was listening to your episode a couple weeks ago and you were talking about, in the gay news, about Marco Rubio and the gender markers on passports.

And you started talking, you said, and now Trump signed an executive order saying the ocean is made of soup, and for a second I thought you were being serious.

It took a while for the joke to land, just because, like, I wouldn't be surprised. So, it's sad, but also kind of humorous, like, this is where we're at in America.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, you read a news story and you can't tell whether you're reading The Onion or actual news. It's all just kind of combined together into a big ball of crap.

Mike Johnson

Yeah, fuck that guy.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, absolutely. To say, to say the least about that, I'd say.

Kyle Getz

Yeah.

Gayish (5:58)

Rob Loveless

Well, for any of the listeners who don't know, Mike and Kyle are both hosts of the podcast Gayish, which talks about stereotypes, exploring the gap between sexuality and actuality.

So, can you tell us a little bit more about Gayish and what inspired you to start the podcast?

Kyle Getz

Yeah, so like I said, it's about gay stereotypes. Every episode, we pick a different gay stereotype and then dissect it.

Mike and I each have our kind of favorite things to like, we do research and prep and come to the episodes and record, ready to talk about like the background. Mike always talks about the history of that topic.

I usually like to look up research studies and bring data to try to figure out you know whether that stereotype is true, and whether you know we talk about our personal experiences with that stereotype, whether it's true for us as well.

Mike Johnson

Coming up on eight years, we just recorded episode 425, before meeting with you today. And it's been, it's been quite a, quite a wild ride.

I think when we got started, I don't know that we even dreamed remotely that we would be where we've ended up.

Rob Loveless

And happy almost anniversary. That's huge.

I mean, I feel like there's not that many queer podcasts out there, so to see your podcast continuing over all these years and covering all the content you do, I really appreciate it and it's a great resource for everybody in the community out there.

Kyle Getz

Oh, thank you. That's very sweet. And there's so many gay podcasts that are also drag race podcasts, which is awesome. Love drag race content, but, like, also not my jam.

So, like, we need, we need other non-drag race-related gay podcasts out there as well.

Mike Johnson

Yeah, for sure.

Personal Experiences with Gay Stereotypes (7:29)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. Well, like you said, throughout Gayish, you've covered a lot of different stereotypes.

So, looking at both of you personally, have you ever felt boxed into a specific stereotype because of your gay identity, and if so, can you share a specific moment where you felt that pressure?

Mike Johnson

The example I always bring up is actually a chapter in our book, and it's that you're supposed to be a slut. You're probably a slut, is one of the, one of the chapters.

And just this idea that, like, all gay men, are hypersexual, just just banging it out all the time, nonstop, when that's just not how I'm wired sexually.

For the longest time, I really felt less than or like I was deficient somehow as a gay man because I was just I wasn't enjoying casual transactional sex the way that I saw in the community.

And I mean, I still sometimes feel that pressure, to be honest, but I think as a stereotype that I feel like I fit the least, that is probably the one that weighs most heavily on me.

Kyle Getz

I think mine is, I remember when I, I came out in college, and right out of college, I went to work for a big company, and everyone at that time, so I was out, had a little Pride flag on my desk. Everyone knew.

But then they started to, like, put me in this box as the gay one. And anytime they would bring up sports or football, they'd joke like, I didn't know, I don't like watching football, but I know, I grew up in Texas.

I know how to play football, I know all the rules and can enjoy watching it every now and then, if it's on. 

I've gone to like, a local, like diner just to, like, watch football every now and then, if I'm not doing anything on some weeknight.

And I think the I played into the jokes of not understanding what was going on with football, because I was playing into the role of the, like, the funny gay one that that doesn't know anything about it.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, it's almost like you can feel like relegated to be like the sassy gay sidekick.

Like, I dress well, I have the funny quips, like, ew vaginas, which you kind of talk about in the gold star gay chapter of your book as well, that that's a stereotype of, like, are you platinum? Are you a star?

And it kind of puts a negative connotation on just biological parts, you know?

Mike Johnson

Yep, yep, absolutely.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, for sure.

Mike Johnson

How about you? Do you same question to you?

Rob Loveless

I definitely think the hypersexual one is because I'm very much like, not that. I'm like, when I first came out, I went on Grindr because, like, I thought it was gay eHarmony. I heard everybody talk about that.

So, I'm like, 21 for the first time ever on Grindr. I'm like, why is everybody so like, horny? Like, doesn’t anybody want to go on a date?

And I didn't even realize, like, when people said, like, they're looking for fun, I'm like, oh, I like fun too. Like, hanging out with friends, doing fun things. I didn't realize meant, like, fun, fun, sexual, fun.

So little bit of a learning curve there. But so, I've never really identified much with, like, the hookup culture.

Not that it hasn't happened, but I definitely need more of, like, an emotional connection with someone. 

And fortunately, as I've gotten older, I think I recognize that more people are open to talking about that too.

Like, you know, if you go on certain apps, you of course, you might find more of, like, hook-up focus, but you know, you can find those emotional connections.

And a lot of gay men I know actually talk about the same that they feel the pressure of hooking up, or that people just want something physical, which, again, nothing wrong with that.

But when you want something emotional, it can be a little disheartening if it seems like nobody's on that page.

Mike Johnson

Yep, yep, absolutely. Same. Resonates.

The Persistence and Evolution of Gay Stereotypes (10:52)

Rob Loveless

And I'm curious, do you think gay stereotypes have evolved over the years? And why do you think they persist?

Kyle Getz

I definitely think they have evolved. And I think it's funny because there's kind of this new wave of gay stereotypes that include things like, gays love iced coffee and gays are bad at math, and gays can't drive, and... 

Mike Johnson

They walk fast.

Kyle Getz

They walk fast. There's like, all these newer stereotypes. I think they got either came about or became popular because of like, the internet and Twitter.

And I think we're constantly developing new gay stereotypes because we, partially because we think they're funny.

Partially because it helps us categorize the world and make things seem a lot easier and more black and white than they really are.

Mike Johnson

As for, as for why they persist, I think that if writing the book taught us anything, we go through 17 chapters of 17 different gay stereotypes and then come up with a verdict of like, hey, is there is it true or not?

And a lot of them, most of them even have a kernel of truth. And I think that that's why they persist. Like nothing's ever a slam dunk.

You can't say 100% of people, gay people, are this way or that way, but there are a lot of things that we've like sort of come by honestly to earn as a stereotype.

And I think that those things persist because they're sort of real.

Rob Loveless

It's interesting to find that little like you said, like kernel of truth that kicks off the stereotype.

I'd always heard mustaches are gay, but now it seems like they're making a little bit of a comeback, like gay, straight, whatever. And I looked it up, I'm like, why is this the way it is?

And it's interesting because there are some ties to Castro clones and then the AIDS epidemic and how different facial hair gave different ideas of health and youth.

So, it's interesting how they start off and then over the years, evolve and change. And I think too, we're in a time where everyone's consuming content, whether it's through social media or 24-hour news cycles. 

So, I was curious, what are your thoughts on how media and pop culture shape the public's view of gay men, and are there certain stereotypes you see represented more frequently?

Kyle Getz

Yeah, it's funny, because you often see like it depends on in the media, whether this is a main character gay or, like a side character gay.

The main character gay has to be relatable. So, they can't be too gay. They have to this, this is like the Love, Simon gay that's like, I'm just a normal everyday kid. I go to school with my friends and I hang out, and he's just like, you know, straight passing kind of gay.

And then you have the side character gays who are there for just like, jokes and comedy and to be sassy and, you know, dress real cute and talk about drag race.

So, I feel like you have a limited number of types of gays that you're allowed to be depending on, you know, what kind of character role you're fulfilling.

Mike Johnson

Yep, yep. And I think media and pop culture, it's funny because looking at it historically, because of the Hays Code and the Lavender Scare in Hollywood, for the longest time, Hollywood was not allowed to show gay people in any sort of positive light at all.

So, it was either sort of a euphemistic dancing around it, like never actually saying that he was gay, but you could tell by the limp wrists and the lisping voice that that was a gay character or gay people were full-on villains, and that that happened quite a bit.

And I think that the the echo that that had in gay culture is pretty palpable.

And then you look at the impact that AIDS had on our community and sort of our relationship to quote-unquote healthy bodies, and that's when you see, like, gym culture and the gay as being a white, hot, jacked dude, all of that sort of emerges in the late 80s and early 90s.

And I think that that media and magazines, the same sort of pressure that makes straight women have to be skinny with giant boobs, I think that ideal masculine appearance really started to impact gay people. 

And now, I think that, you asked a little bit ago how stereotypes have changed, I think that we're much more accepting of different kinds of bodies and different ways of being gay.

I think that we're we're hopefully finally learning that gender identity and gender expression and therefore sexual orientation are are a lot more fluid than they've been allowed to be in the past.

And I feel like I'm starting to see that more and more in in gay culture. So yeah, this, I'm rambling now, but that's what comes to mind.

Rob Loveless

I think, too. So, my sisters are four and a half years younger than me, and despite not too much of a big age difference, like attitudes, behaviors, I see very different between us.

Like they're obsessed with TikTok, so they send me all the TikTok stuff. But it feels like more of that Gen Z culture, that there's a lot more fluidity, not even just in terms of identity, but dress styles, this and that. 

So, I feel that it's not as like, oh, you wear this, that's a gay clothing item, or this or that. Like, years ago, we had gay men dress nice, and if you dress nice, but you're straight, you're metrosexual.

So now I feel it's like anything you could wear, a mustache, you can have this that.

I feel like maybe more the appearance ones, and like you said, with body positivity, the increase of that, I feel maybe some of the more appearance-based stereotypes are changing a little bit.

But then, like Kyle mentioned, it gives rise to, you know, the fast walkers, the iced coffees, which both are me. I actually just did that today. But so, it's kind of changing how we see stereotypes.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, for sure.

Harmful Effects of Gay Stereotypes (16:30)

Rob Loveless

Are there any stereotypes that you think are actually positive or empowering in any way? And then on the flip side, which ones do you think are the most harmful?

Kyle Getz

I think one of the ones that Mike just mentioned is, you know, gays, I wrote about this in the chapter you're called, You're Probably Hot and Jacked.

The idea that gay men are supposed to be hot, like, or that they're hotter than straight men, I think is sounds positive like, Oh, you're gay. You must be, you must be an attractive person.

But I think a lot of the positive stereotypes end up being harmful, because if you don't fit that, the standards that you have to meet are higher, and if you don't fit that, then you feel like you're deficient in some way, that you're not doing it right.

If I'm not as hot as all the hot, jacked gym gays, then what's wrong with me? Why am I not the hot one? 

And it there's actually a study on this where they asked non-homophobic college women to rate the attractiveness of pictures of men, and when the college women thought they were rating a gay man, they ended up rating him as more attractive than if they thought they were straight.

So, there is this effect where people expect gay men to be hotter.

Mike Johnson

I think the like in the writ large, are there any stereotypes that I think are actually positive or empowering? Not really.

I think that maybe for some people, they could be individually empowering in some ways, but I think looking at the entire community, they never are, and it's because of the phenomenon that Kyle just described, of like, what if you are less than whatever that stereotype says that you're supposed to be in order to be valid to the gay person?

It just creates this sort of like tension in that person and their experience, and it's really unfortunate and not good for them. I think about, like, some other gross stereotypes.

These are about about race more than sexual orientation, but like, what if you're an Asian that's not good at math? What? Like, then you feel extra dumb because Asians are supposed to be good at math, right?

Or, what if you're the Black dude that doesn't have a giant dick? And like that, now you are less than because, like, all Black guys are supposed to be hung.

Like, none of these things are actually true, for one, but then also helpful in any meaningful way, and in fact, can then make people feel shitty about themselves when they don't, aren't the benefactor of that quote-unquote positive characteristic.

I think the most harmful stereotype though about the gay community, is likely that we drink and party all the time that...

Kyle Getz

I was gonna say the same thing.

Mike Johnson

That drugs and alcohol are like the expectation.

Because I definitely think that there are people myself and Kyle, included, we just talked about it in our episode today, who like, then felt like that was something that we had to do.

That like, oh, you're gay now, so I guess it's time to drink and do a bunch of drugs and then, you know that's it's not it's not true, but like, that is what the behavior ends up being in order to try to fit in.

Rob Loveless

That's always been a tricky one for me.

Before I lived in Philly, I was in Pittsburgh for seven years, and Pittsburgh's a much smaller city, so obviously there's a much smaller gay community, but it seemed like there was quite a big overlap between the gay party scene and the gay community, because it was like bars were your only chance to meet people there.

I mean, obviously, there were apps, but everyone you saw on an app you'd see at the bar. So, it felt like if you wanted to make friends or date, you had to immerse yourself in this.

And even in college, when I was still quote-unquote straight, um, I never was, like a big drinker, and so the party scene was never that appealing to me.

But now, when it feels like, all right, I have to immerse myself in this environment I'm not comfortable with to meet people, and then also, kind of feel like I have to compete with others to get the attention of somebody I'm trying to talk to, or whatever.

I think, going back to your stereotypes, like I need to look the best, or I need to come off this way or that way if I want to be worthy quote unquote within the community here.

So, I think that the drinking and partying one is definitely a heavier one that weighs on people that can cause a lot of damage.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, and gay bars are one of our safe havens. They're one of the few spaces that we have that are just for us and meant for us, and we feel safe in them.

And you know, it goes hand in hand then with drinking.

You’re Probably Gayish (20:47)

Rob Loveless

Definitely, definitely. Well, that being said, you recently published your book, You're Probably Gayish: The Truth (and Lies) Behind 17 Gay Stereotypes. And in that, obviously, you covered 17 gay stereotypes.

But in eight years of podcasting, you've covered so much. So, throughout all that, what's your favorite stereotype you've covered on the podcast and why?

Kyle Getz

Mine has been talking about gaydar. Gaydar was one that I was really fascinated by.

And when we did that, I like, was up till late in the morning, just like reading research studies and papers about gaydar to try to figure out what the science said, if it was real, if there's like, any truth behind gaydar, and it was fascinating to me.

I think what the, what I discovered through that is, you have uh gaydar, there is something to gaydar. You have a better than a fifty-fifty chance of guessing whether someone's gay.

But it's more like 60% chance of guessing if someone's gay, which is nowhere near you know 90, 95%. You're it's not a sure thing.

So, I think when you take everything into account, people's look, mannerisms, movement, the way they talk, you know, when you add up all that, you can get a better than than fifty-fifty shot at guessing whether they're gay, but it's, but it's by no means a silver bullet.

Mike Johnson

Hmm, a favorite. I mean, I favorite episodes, but that's not necessarily favorite stereotype, and that's sort of what I'm what I'm chewing on a little bit here.

I think one stereotype that comes to mind, and I actually wrote about this in the book, is the overachieving gay, the Best Little Boy in the World gay, I think, is really interesting, because you one stereotype that's absolutely true is that all queer people are traumatized, because being a queer person in this world is traumatic, and we deal with that in different ways.

And a lot of these stereotypes are really expressions of that trauma in some way.

And one of the ways that that trauma can express itself is is trying to make up for it in some way, and being really excelling in your profession or in your fastidiousness or in your outward appearance, like as this, like way or overcome this trauma.

And, but, yeah, so like being the 4.0 student I think is one of, one of my favorites, because now it, now it sort of makes sense.

The uppity gay with the clipboard that's running the show at the wedding is like, that's, that's a, that's a real thing and, and there's a reason why.

Rob Loveless

Both of those are really interesting.

With gaydar, I read an article, and I think you covered it too in the book, about how there's now like AI trying to detect if people are gay or not through different pictures, which is, I mean, AI in general, can be scary to think about, but especially when it comes to detecting people's sexual orientations using computer algorithms, I think could be a little dangerous.

And to the Best Little Boy in the World, too, I think that one's pretty all-encompassing, where, like you talked about, it's the desire to be perfect, whether it's grades or appearance or socialization, money, whatever.

And I think that one's definitely something that you see a lot and the theme throughout other books, like The Velvet Rage by Dr. Alan Downs. It's it's one that I think a lot of people can grapple with in some aspect of their life.

Mike Johnson

Yeah.

Rob Loveless

How do you think humor or satire about gay stereotypes impacts the way we view these ideas, either as a tool for breaking them down or reinforcing them?

Mike Johnson

Well, a lot of this stuff is heavy, going back to that trauma that I was just talking about.

And there is a way that humor and satire can let you talk about these really heavy things in a way that you couldn't if you were just sort of wallowing in it and being emotionally overwhelmed by it.

So, I think there's value in in that. But we also, when we, when we got the show going, the podcast, we really wanted to harp on this idea that there is no wrong way to be gay.

That you are perfectly valid no matter how you express yourself, no matter who you are.

And we end every episode with our gayest and straightest and that's the gayest thing about us that week, and the straightest thing about us that week.

And it's very much meant to poke fun at the fact that the only thing that makes you gay or straight is who you bang.

But like everybody has a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B, no matter who they are.

And so, it's hopefully it comes across in the show as a satirization of the idea of sexual orientation-based stereotypes and all.

Kyle Getz

And I think part of just our conversation style, like, I think how Mike and I deal with things in general, and how we talk to each other is just through humor.

And so, it made sense to bring that conversational style into a podcast and bring that into our conversations. I think the gay culture, gay community, has used humor as a coping mechanism for all the trauma we go through.

You know, you go see any drag queen and, you know, you'll, you'll know that we use humor to cope with things and to talk about really hard, heavy things.

Rob Loveless

So, after eight years of podcasting and doing all these deep dives into gay stereotypes, how did you get the idea to expand Gayish into book format?

Mike Johnson

Well, Kyle's a writer, and he has had a not-so-secret desire to to write, and I think that both of us view Gayish and the community that's built up around it as like, the most successful thing that we've ever done creatively.

So, then that, you know, lends itself pretty well to a jumping-off point for other things. And we've talked about directions to take, to take this whole concept, and a book, a book, a book, made sense.

So, he drug me along and said, you’re gonna learn how to write.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, I think it was an opportunity for us to spend a little bit more time with stereotypes when we do the like weekly episodes.

You know, we spend a little bit of time, or, you know, we spend enough time researching these and prepping them, but then, you know, you move on to the next one so quickly.

When it's in book form, you have a little bit more time to sit down and stew on a stereotype, do a lot of research, dig into it a little bit deeper.

And I think that was an enjoyable part of writing the book compared to doing a podcast.

Rob Loveless

And we were talking before we started recording, but the book's so much fun. Like I said it, it feels like you're reading a podcast, because I can totally hear your voices throughout it.

It was fun seeing the quotes and some of the chapters, kind of throwbacks to some of the older episodes.

So, do you mind just giving an overview to all the listeners about how the book works with the quiz at the front and then kind of how each chapter's layout is?

Mike Johnson

Yeah, sure. The book starts with a 17-question quiz. It's multiple choice, and when you score it, we give you gay points based on your answers, and then every one of those questions corresponds to a chapter where we look at that stereotype a little more deeply.

Sort of justify how we scored it, the way that we scored it, and a fun little verdict on like, is that stereotype true or not?

But yeah, that Cosmo quiz at the beginning is sort of the backbone to the concept.

Rob Loveless

And we talked about, obviously, some of the favorite stereotypes you've covered in the podcast that made it into the book. But how did you choose which other stereotypes you covered in this?

Kyle Getz

I think we made a list of some of the various options of like, the most common. We tried to get in some of the more common, obvious stereotypes.

And I think we just kind of one by one as we're picking chapters to do would like look at this list and say, oh, this is what is feeling inspiring right now, and this is the one I care more about and want to dig into. 

And so, we just kind of picked out them that way.

Mike Johnson

Yeah, it's, it's, you're right. We made a list and we sort of culled it down, but then it also sort of became, what can we do? Like the writing process is so wild.

It just it, we would have our meetings, and we'd bring pages to each other, and we'd read through them and we'd read through them and give feedback.

And then it was just like, what can I make myself write this week before the next meeting? And and that often drove my decisions anyway.

It's just like, what, what can I, what can I make myself not be blocked trying to write?

Kyle Getz

Well because you, Mike also had a full-time job. I was unemployed at the time. Luckily have since gotten a job, but I had a little bit more time and bandwidth to write when we had the you know that going on.

Rob Loveless

While writing this, were there any topics or themes that resonated with you differently than when you covered the stereotypes in the podcast?

Mike Johnson

We did a episode of the podcast on musicals, musical theater, and the chapter in the book on musicals, it felt different that time around.

Not exactly sure why. I think because I made that in the book more of a personal story than just a breaking down of the stereotypes, which I think is true throughout the book.

There's, there's a little more like personal connection than than even comes through on the podcast sometimes.

Yeah, I think every chapter actually put some new spin on it that made it resonate differently if only because of what Kyle was describing earlier, that we like, it's just a different format for putting content together.

So, you get to go a little deeper, and you get to break it down in ways that don't necessarily translate well to an audio medium like podcasting.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, it's interesting, because in the podcast, when we do our prep work, I know Mike's going to talk about the history of whatever subject. So that's something I don't touch, that side of it.

But when we were writing the book, we were both, you know, individually and solely responsible for our own chapter.

So, I would cover everything, including, you know, the history of the topic, the research behind it, my personal stories about it, to arrive at the verdict.

So, it was a little bit, every chapter was a little bit different than usual, in that it was more all-encompassing in that subject.

And and, yeah, I do think the including personal anecdotes made for me, the chapter called You're Probably Crazy, where you know, we talk about mental health issues and challenges that gay people have to face, more likely to face those challenges.

And I explored, kind of my own experience with depression, and where I think that came from, and my, you know, coming out, and its role in, you know, my mental health journey.

So, I think that felt a little bit different and definitely more personal as I was exploring that topic.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I mean, I personally appreciate your vulnerability in these topics, because I think, especially in the book, you know, it's a perfect blend of, you have the humorous moments and then the more serious moments, which I think is really important to kind of dissect these stereotypes and address LGBTQ+ wellness and mental health.

So, throughout the resources in the book, what do you hope readers get from it?

Kyle Getz

I think, like Mike said, there is no wrong way to be a gay person unless you're a TERF.

So, as if, if you're true to yourself and expressing yourself in a way that's genuine and honest and who you are, then that's the right thing to do.

I think we get trapped in so many of these expectations of you know that we've already talked about so many expectations in the gay community of who you are and what you should be, that we hope that people find that you know they're not the only ones who don't always fit those expectations, and that your experience is valid.

Mike Johnson

I absolutely agree with all of that. I also hope that people are entertained and I hope that they learn something.

I hope that they feel more valid as a human no matter what their gender or sexual expression is, sexual orientation. It is very gay male-focused, which we talk about.

But I don't think that that makes it unreadable for anybody else. I hope that they feel like they got their money worth.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I cannot recommend it enough, so everybody listening go get your copy afterwards. Link will be in the show notes. It's such a fun read and really informative.

Overcoming Gay Stereotypes (33:04)

Rob Loveless

As we kind of get towards the end of the episode here, I was wondering, what advice would you give to young queer people who are struggling with the pressure of fitting into certain stereotypes?

Mike Johnson

First, however, you are in this moment, you are exactly where you're supposed to be and exactly who you are meant to be and you are valid. I would also say, whatever your situation, it might be difficult. 

We're in a difficult political climate. You might live in a difficult part of the world.

You might not have a supportive family, or be in a school that is affirming who you are, but there are communities and people out there who will see you and support you and love you no matter what, and find them.

Chosen family is a phrase that we use in the queer community a lot, and that's because it's important and it matters and we can lean on each other. I think stereotypes are just stereotypes.

That's the other thing to remember. Like, there is no wrong way to be gay. You don't have to be into musicals, and you don't have to dress snappy, you don't have to hate football.

Like there's, there's a lot of stuff that is put on you as an expectation that, when it comes down to it doesn't actually matter.

Kyle Getz

Yeah, I think you are not alone is, you know, also what you're saying, which is, you know, there, there are so many people that have a similar experience as you and can understand what you're going through that, you know, you're, yeah, you're not alone.

Politics and Gay Stereotypes (34:38)

Rob Loveless

Kind of segueing off of the political piece of that, obviously, right now, it is a very heavy and tumultuous time.

I'm gonna borrow a word from Gayish. There's a lot of dick bag fuck face assholes in office right now.

So given the current climate, what are some ways that we as members of the LGBTQ+ community can work to challenge and deconstruct harmful stereotypes?

Kyle Getz

I think being authentic to yourself is one way to challenge it because you naturally will not fit into all of the stereotypes.

You do not, you probably don't live in Palm Springs, and you probably aren't you know a jacked cis, white guy that you know goes to the gym every day and parties every night.

Like you just, you won't fit all of the stereotypes. So, learning to embrace and live in your authenticity, I think, is one way to combat the expectations that people have of gay people.

Mike Johnson

I think that it is important to be as visible as you safely can. That they are trying very hard to shove us all back into the closet and annihilate us.

And I think the only way to combat that is to be as in their face as possible. And that's easier said than done. Like there are a lot of people who are vulnerable or not, not in a place where it's safe to do so. 

Protect yourself. Do whatever you have to do to protect yourself. And if you can be out and be a pain in their ass, you absolutely should. That's going to help move the needle.

I like to say on the show all the time that the default setting for America, or what they want America to be, is a cis, white, straight, able-bodied, Christian man, and the more of those six things that deviate, the less human you are to the right in this country.

And so, I recognize that I'm not straight and I'm not a Christian, but I am still a cis white dude, and that comes with a lot of privilege. And it's important to all of us cis white gay men to step up.

Like we need to step up and look out for the rest of our community that doesn't have that privilege. And so cis white gays, get it together. Get out there, use that privilege, be protective.

Episode Closing (36:57)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, the Eight of Cups, this is telling us that we're moving on from disillusionment and false promises.

We've tried those eight cups, and none of them satisfy us and align with the journey we're on. So, we're trusting our intuition to walk away and know that there's a better path forward.

And like we talked about today, there have been a lot of stereotypes created over the years, and even new ones that are evolving, that have really kind of put gay men in a box and have held us back.

Some have even been weaponized by heteronormative society to oppress us. But, like Mike and Kyle talked about today, there is no right or wrong way to be gay.

We are all an individual, and there's a million ways to be gay, just like there's a million ways to be straight.

So, despite those stereotypes and labels that have been placed upon us, we don't have to show up with that if it doesn't align with our future. It is so important that we're our authentic selves.

So, if we try those eight cups and none of them seem to fit for us or we feel oppressed by them, it is in our power to look within and trust ourselves and move on from that and live and show up authentically. 

And as we walk away from those cups, as we challenge those stereotypes and show up authentically, we can reclaim the power from those stereotypes.

And as we do that, we're personifying our existence and showing those in power that they can no longer oppress us.

Connect with Mike and Kyle (38:07)

Rob Loveless

Mike and Kyle, again, thank you so much for coming on today. For myself, personally, this was super exciting, because I love Gayish podcast. I've been listening since 2021.

But especially for the listeners too, I think this is really insightful between the episodes you release, the book, there's just a lot of resources on, like you said, bridging the gap between sexuality and actuality, and teaching people there's no right or wrong way to be gay.

So, thank you, thank you, thank you. As we wrap up here, can you let all listeners know where they can connect with you both personally, as well as the podcast?

Mike Johnson

Yeah, sure. I mean, our website is gayishpodcast.com. If you're interested in the book and where we're taking the book on tour this year, that's at gayishpodcast.com/book.

And we're @gayishpodcast on all socials. I'm @mikjohnleft on Instagram, M-I-K-J-O-H-N-L-E-F-T. And I am a slut. I will follow back anybody. So, feel free to reach out.

Kyle Getz

I don't remember my personal Instagram handle, but we link to it on the Gayish podcast Instagram, so you can find and follow me there.

Rob Loveless

And after you're done listening, go check out Gayish. I seriously cannot recommend this podcast enough. I absolutely love it.

It's equal parts entertaining and informative, especially when it comes to politics and news.

They do a roundup every week, so it definitely helps keep you informed of what's going on with LGBTQ+ rights in today's political climate. They have tons of great resources.

And their book, You're Probably Gayish, is such a fun read. I love the quiz aspect. You're gonna love it.

So definitely, definitely, definitely, check them out after this. Show them some love and give them all the support.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (39:33)

Rob Loveless

And as for us, you know the drill.

For any questions or feedback, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Five stars only. It's greatly appreciated.

For more information on this topic, episode resources, blog posts, links to merchandise, socials, all that fun stuff, you can visit the website ajadedgay.com.

You can connect with the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

Also, if you're feeling generous, consider supporting the podcast on Patreon for as little as $1 a month. 

That gets you instant access to episodes ad-free, a day early, plus exclusive monthly bonus content. And if you sign up at the $3 or $5 tier, you get some additional goodies there. So how fun.

Or if you just want to access those monthly bonus episodes, you can do so by purchasing them for $3 each.

But if you're scared of commitment, don't worry. I get it. You can make a one-time donation on Buy Me a Coffee for any dollar amount, and both the Patreon and Buy Me a Coffee are @ajadedgaypod.

And remember: every day is all we have, so you gotta make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.

Outtake (41:03)

Mike Johnson

And Rob, I know you said that this is an edited show and, but is it a cussing show?

Rob Loveless

Oh, yeah, you can definitely cuss. Yeah, you can curse. Feel free

Mike Johnson

Great, fuck that guy.

Rob Loveless

Yeah, absolutely. To say, to say the least about that, I'd say.

Kyle Getz

Yeah.