138. Will & Grace

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Why do I relate to Will Truman? Because he taught me that, as a gay man, I'm allowed to be a little neurotic.

Episode Introduction (0:25)

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a non-jaded gay because I started drinking kombucha and I've never felt healthier.

So, my diet wasn't great last year, and I kind of just felt blah, so I wanted to kind of do something a little cleansing for myself.

So, in addition to trying to eat healthier, I also started drinking kombucha, because I heard that it was good for digestion. It had probiotics, all that great stuff.

So, I started drinking it this week, and I love it. Like it tastes, I actually really like the taste. I know some people say it's disgusting.

I thought it tasted good, but I also just felt so much better, like I didn't feel bloated or, like, gross or anything like that. So, I've been enjoying that, and I feel like I'm doing something good for myself. 

Although I did have a little mishap. I thought you had to mix it when you first got it because I thought it like separated or something.

So not realizing that it was a carbonated drink, I gave it a really good shake beforehand to make sure everything was blended, and then immediately opened it and it exploded on me.

So, it was a little bit of a surprising start for a Monday, but nevertheless, she persisted, and in doing so, I've learned to love kombucha.

Will & Grace (1:32)

Anyway, from all things zen to going way back when. Today, I am very excited to talk about another pop-culture staple, and that is Will & Grace.

Now in past episodes, obviously we've talked about queer representation. We did a deep dive into Queer as Folk about, oh, over two years ago now. I can't believe it's been that long.

And I know we've talked about how queer representation really kind of had a little bit of a renaissance in the 90s that led us to some of the more authentic representation we see today.

And one of those shows that have been credited with that is Will & Grace. And personally, I love the show.

I mean, recently I finished re-watching the entire series for I think this was the third or fourth time.

I can't really remember, but I mean, sometimes it's nice to just watch something that's light and makes you laugh.

And this time around, though, I wanted to watch it with a little bit more critical of an eye, because I think the last time I watched the series through was before I started the podcast and before I, you know, learned a little bit more about the history of representation in media and some common tropes and stereotypes we see.

Yeah, so we're going to talk a little bit about the overview of Will & Grace, the conception of it, all those things.

And then I'm also going to just kind of read through some of the things I've noticed rewatching it in the current day and age. But before we do that, you know the drill, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (2:47)

So, the card for this episode is the Seven of Swords. As you remember, Swords is tied to the element of air. It's masculine energy, which is very action-oriented.

And Swords is symbolic of our thoughts, ideas, and words. It basically encapsulates all forms of communication, both spoken and written. And in numerology, seven is tied to inspired action and magic. 

And I once heard someone refer to this card as being like a state of adolescence where you're no longer a child and naive and you're now getting ready to begin your path forward to adulthood.

And the Seven of Swords is telling us that there may possibly be some deception and lying going on in our lives. So not great.

Maybe someone is being dishonest with us, or maybe we're not being truthful to ourselves. But it's also signifying that there's an opportunity to be strategic.

You know, we can't do everything all at once, so we need to prioritize what is most immediate and what we should accomplish first instead of overwhelming ourselves.

Because sometimes, when we do feel overwhelmed, we might rush to get things done in a sloppy way, which risks making mistakes, or we might take shortcuts to complete our tasks, which could be a little unethical sometimes.

So, through being strategic, we can reframe these situations through the lens of better communication and honesty to avoid deceiving others.

The History of Will & Grace (4:02)

And with that in mind, let's talk about the history of Will & Grace.

So, in 1997 Max Mutchnick and David Kohan pitched a sitcom to NBC featuring an ensemble cast of three couples, one being a gay man and a straight woman.

NBC executive Warren Littlefield was not keen on the first two couples but wanted to explore the gay-straight couple concept, and Mutchnick and Kohan were then asked to create a pilot script focusing on the gay-straight couple.

In November 1997, NBC consulted sitcom director James Burrows about the show's homosexual theme and its potential audience appeal, and he was intrigued and decided to direct the pilot.

However, despite NBC's initial support, there were concerns about the gay subject matter due to the recent cancelation of Ellen DeGeneres' ABC sitcom, Ellen, the previous year.

And the reason for its cancelation was because ABC received criticism for Ellen's Puppy Love episode in which she publicly came out.

As a result, its ratings plummeted after it was deemed quote-unquote too gay. Now despite its cancelation, Kohan acknowledged that Ellen made it easier for Will & Grace to make it on the air.

He also felt it had a better shot at succeeding because Will was openly gay as part of the show's premise and wasn't exploring the awkward territory of coming out like Ellen did.

He went on to emphasize that Will & Grace used Will's sexuality as a device to explore the dynamics between a man and a woman when sex doesn't get in the way, similar to the When Harry Met Sally premise.

And then in March 1998, the pilot was filmed with Eric McCormack and Debra Messing playing Will and Grace, and Sean Hayes and Megan Mullally playing Jack and Karen.

And interestingly enough, John Barrowman was one of the final candidates for the role of Will, but he was rejected because he allegedly wasn't gay enough.

But plot twist, he's actually gay in real life. A bit ironic, isn't it?

And the role instead went to Eric McCormack, who is straight. And we previously talked about whether straight actors should play queer characters.

I'm not doing that debate here. You can go back and listen to that episode if you want the information on that.

Anyway, Will & Grace premiered on NBC on Monday, September 22, 1998, at 9:30 pm which was a tough time slot, but it was still met with pretty positive reception.

Its popularity increased and its last five episodes of the season aired on Thursdays at 8:30 pm which was a more coveted time slot.

And Will & Grace went on to run for eight seasons, consisting of 194 episodes in total.

Its most popular seasons were three through five and from 2001 to 2005 it was the highest rated sitcom among adults aged 18 to 49. And its cultural impact was huge.

Will & Grace was the first primetime TV series with openly gay lead characters, and it's credited with paving the way for other gay-themed programs like Queer as Folk, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and Boy Meets Boy.

And as we know, representation can help foster acceptance. In fact, in May 2012, then Vice President Joe Biden credited Will & Grace for helping educate Americans on LGBT rights during a Meet the Press interview.

And Biden's statement was followed by then-President Obama's public endorsement of same-sex marriage on May 9, 2012.

Will & Grace was also highly awarded and was nominated for 83 Primetime Emmy awards over the course of its run, winning 18 of them, including one for Outstanding Comedy Series in 2000.

All four main cast members each won at least one Emmy Award for their performances, making the show one of four live-action sitcoms where all principal actors won an Emmy.

In 2005 Will & Grace and Desperate Housewives were both nominated for 15 Emmys, each tying them for second place in the all-time record for most nominations in a single year, behind The Larry Sanders Show.

And the show also won several GLAAD Media Awards for its advocacy of the LGBTQ+ community.

Now, despite its critical reception and accolades, Will & Grace was also criticized for not fully challenging stereotypes and presenting a limited view of the gay community.

Now, like we've talked about in past episodes, representation back then was very limited, and things from almost 30 years ago don't necessarily hold up today.

However, even though Will & Grace didn't perfectly represent the LGBTQ+ community, it definitely opened doors for future representation.

Will & Grace Analysis (8:22)

And like I said up front, I recently finished re-watching the whole series, and I did put on my journalist hat and took some notes while I was watching through the series.

You know, just some observations and thoughts about the show itself and its representation. So, let's get into it.

Although I will say just to kind of disclaimer up front, I started re-watching the series December 2023 and I just finished it, like, last month, so it took me about a year to watch it fully.

Sometimes I get bored just watching the same show over and over, so I need to change it up a little bit. Plus, through listening to this podcast, you know it was a busy year for me. Give me a break.

So, yeah, a year later, here we are. Anyway, let's get into it.

So first off, in season one, Will and Grace are supposed to be 31 and Jack is 30 and this time around watching it, it was really weird to me, because I'm currently 31 going on 32 but to me, Will and Grace seem older than that.

You know, not that they look older or anything, but just the apartment and being so cosmopolitan in New York City and the way they dress, and they have these fancy careers as a lawyer and an interior designer, and they're having wine with their fancy dinners they cook or going out to trendy restaurants, and it's just not the level I'm at.

I mean, I meal prep on Monday and eat cold leftovers the rest of the week by myself, and I don't even have wine in my house. And this week for dinner, I ate Greek yogurt.

So, I'm not living up to their level of sophistication. And now I'm questioning my career and my wardrobe choices. I don't know, maybe I should stop wearing sweatpants so often, but they're so comfy.

Anyway, also, in the first episode, Karen and Jack are very watered down compared to the characters we see later on in the series.

Like Karen's voice isn't as high-pitched in the pilot, but in the second episode, she has her signature voice and humor, which just gets more outrageous in the best possible way as the show goes on.

But I noticed it wasn't until, like, six or seven episodes into the first season that Jack gets a little more animated.

Like he's definitely theatrical from the beginning, but his voice just sounds lower in the first few episodes, and it's not as peppy, which he's known for on the show.

And I mean, it was the late 90s, so obviously the show was already pushing limits with having gay characters, so I'm sure they were trying to tone down the gayness at first, to test out the waters there. 

Like, for example, Will very much plays the gay best friend to Grace in the first season, where he's mostly logical and the rational one, while he tries to help Grace with her life problems, whether it be handling the breakup with her fiancé or finding a place to live or giving her dating advice.

But Will was mostly sexless in the beginning. Like it's mentioned that he went through a breakup with his long-term boyfriend, Michael, and he makes comments about hot guys, but you never really see him interact with other gay men besides Jack.

So, it's kind of just like these hypothetical dating scenarios he's been in. Like out of sight, out of mind.

But one thing that really stood out to me early on in the first season, besides Will's much-needed haircut in the pilot episode, was that Will and Grace get in a fight over Grace's love life.

And she says to him, "You just want me to be alone like you." And Will responds, "Funny, I never thought I was alone." And that really hit me for a couple reasons.

One, I do think it plays into the stereotype of the gay best friend who is just there to support and isn't expected to have a love life of their own.

And two Will's response, I think really illustrates the concept of chosen family.

Like you may not have a significant other or children, but as a gay man, your friends are like your family, and so even though you may not have the quote-unquote traditional heteronormative lifestyle, that doesn't mean you feel alone.

Also, despite the first season coming out more than 25 years ago, there are a couple things that still hold true today.

For starters, Will and Grace are fighting about something, and Will says, “That isn't weird. Gay Republicans are weird.”

*She's got a point.*

I'm looking at you, George Santos.

And the other thing is a scenario I think a lot of us have experienced in some way, shape, or form. In episode 19, Will Works Out, Jack joins Will's gym.

And previously, Jack went to a gay gym, while Will goes to a more traditional gym.

And while they're working out, they bump into one of Will's clients, and Will dismisses Jack and keeps him away from the client because he's embarrassed by how out Jack is.

In fact, Will is later talking to Grace and says, "Does Jack have to be such a fag?" Which I'm surprised they could say that on NBC, but Jack overhears and acts over the top butch to get back at Will.

But basically, there's a conversation between them where Jack calls Will out for having 15 different versions of himself to fit into different situations, which we kind of talked about in our code-switching episode.

And Will says that at work, some people know he's gay, others don't, because he's nervous, it'll hurt his career if he's out. And Jack replies, "I'd rather be a fag than afraid."

So that really resonated with me for both reasons. I mean, from Will's standpoint, I kind of understand that, like I've been in those situations as well, but also at the same time, like, if you're not bringing your authentic self to the workplace, then you're masking who you are the majority of your day.

So, it's kind of like a double-edged sword there. Anyway, moving on to Season Two, Episode 13, Acting Out, Jack is excited for the first gay kiss on primetime TV, but when the quote-unquote kiss airs, it's watered down.

The men lean in and say they're going to kiss, but the camera turns away and zooms in on the fireplace before anyone can see them kiss.

And Jack is outraged by it and starts to protest, but Will is complacent and says that TV networks, advertisers, and viewers don't want to see two gay men kissing.

And this causes a rift between the two of them. So, then Jack goes down to the offices of NBC to complain, which, coincidentally is the channel Will & Grace aired on and Will meets him there, and they make up, but despite their complaint to the network, their PR person says that they have no comment. 

So then on their way home, Jack spots Al Roker doing his live broadcast outside, and Jack runs up to talk to him.

And he explains what's been going on and asks rhetorically how long he's going to have to wait to see two gay men kiss on TV.

And without hesitation, Will says, not as long as you think, and kisses Jack with a camera on them on live TV.

And this episode came out in 2000 so I wasn't fully sure of the context around this, but I did do a little research.

So, the kiss between Eric McCormack and Sean Hayes was the second kiss between two men that aired on primetime US television, and that comes after That 70s Show episode Eric's Buddy, which aired in 1998.

And then three months later, after That 70s Show, Dawson's Creek aired what is generally regarded as the first gay male kiss on primetime in a romantic context during the episode True Love.

And also, the kiss between Will and Jack was a tongue-in-cheek reference to a real-life event that happened on the Today Show.

Apparently, in 1999 two men actually did kiss on live television. And right after the kiss, Al Roker commented, "See they wouldn't do that on Will & Grace." And then they did.

*I said, I wanna make history. And that's what this is.*

And then later in season three, episode 23 he actually kisses a date, but it's just a quick peck on the lips. 

And then fast forward to season five, episode 10, he and Jack briefly peck on the lips, jokingly, like a 1950s married couple, because Will creates a gift-wrapping room, and he and Jack wrapped their breakfast for each other and opened it.

So, as you can see there, we did see a little bit of male affection, but overall, like I said, Will was kind of sexless.

Like we saw Grace go on dates and talk about her dating, and she was making out with guys or, you know, cuddling them, whatever. We didn't see that with Will and Jack for a long time.

They would reference going on a date, or maybe reference something sexual, but like, it couldn't be shown. They weren't allowed the visual of being gay.

Also, early in the season, Will had a very close relationship with his dad, which I thought was really interesting, because I think it kind of challenges the trope that most gay men don't have a good relationship with their father.

Although it is revealed that it turns out his father has kind of hidden Will's identity from his colleagues. 

And then way later on, towards the end of the show, there is a big fight between Will and his dad that ends very poorly. So, the relationship doesn't feel sustainable throughout the show.

But again, early on, like the first few episodes, you meet Will's dad, like they're super close.

He's open with his dad about who he's dating, this and that, and it just feels like there's no guards up there, which was really refreshing to see.

Anyway, fast forwarding a bit, in season five, there's a four-part story arc about how Will and Jack give Karen's cousin a makeover because he's newly gay.

And Will falls for him in the end, but the cousin wants to play the field for a bit. And it does show Will give him a peck on the lips, and this is really the first fling we see Will have.

Like I said in the past, he's talked about dates, and there was that one kiss, but you never really saw anything more than that.

Then season six, it feels a little bit more boring to me. Grace had gotten married earlier. Congratulations, another straight person getting married.

And then in season six, her husband, Leo is in Africa, I think, and Grace goes with him, and she comes back without him.

And in real life, she was pregnant during the season, and it feels like they kind of downplayed her character, and she was just there to say something without really contributing to the plot.

But it did give some more time to Jack's character development because he starts a relationship with one of Will's rich clients.

And finally, in episode 18, Will meets Vince, a cop, who his friends had been trying to set him up with for years.

Then season seven, episode 5, it's Will's birthday, and Vince gives him the key to his apartment. And then they kiss and hug, and it's more than just a peck, and it's like this really romantic moment.

And I actually have a vivid memory of seeing that for the first time back when I was going into my freshman year of high school. So, the show had been off the air a couple years. There were reruns.

And the one summer, I was staying with my grandmother because my cousins were around my age, and they lived around the corner.

So, the one morning, while, you know, we were getting ready, or my cousins were getting ready to come over, you know, she surprisingly liked Will & Grace, even though she's not the most progressive politically.

She enjoyed the show, and she had it on, you know, while I was there. So, I started watching it. And I had heard of the show Will & Grace, but I didn't realize it was about a gay guy.

So, this was like, I think the first episode I saw, or one of the first episodes I saw at her house, and I saw this episode and that, I mean, seeing two men hug and kiss like that, it really jumped out to me.

And I'm like, wow. Like I it was, I never thought that could happen. I never, like, logically put that together, because growing up, like, gay wasn't really talked about in my household.

And I think looking back in hindsight, I probably felt a flutter of, like, romance seeing that like, Oh, that's so sweet.

But obviously, at, you know, 14 years old, I didn't recognize what that was, but it just, it's something that stands out to me. And every time I've re-watched the series, that episode, like, it just, I don't know.

It just holds a special place in my heart.

But don't be too happy, because then they break up. And in season eight, the final season, they introduce a new guy in Will's life.

And in episode 14, they finally show a real kiss, more than just a passionate pack, but not full make out. But obviously, that doesn't last either.

And as the season comes to an end, in episode 21 Will and Vince reconnect and get back together.

And I'm not gonna, like, totally spoil the ending, but, like, Will and Vince end up together and they have a son.

Will & Grace Reboot (18:55)

But then in 2017 when the show was rebooted, it kind of erased the last few episodes of the original series. Like Will and Vince and Grace and her husband don't have kids, that part never happened.

I don't know when, but Will and Vince had broken up sometime prior to the reboot, and Vince was actually getting married to somebody else.

And, like, they remained friends, but, like, they weren't together anymore. And so, it just kind of felt weird that that erased it.

I mean, I understand why they did because they had to continue the story, and they kind of gave them the happy ending back in 2006.

And if you have the happy ending then, it limits your new plot lines for a reboot. But I was sad not to see him end up with Vince. I really loved Vince.

That being said, though, while the reboot was positively received, I feel like I heard a lot of people say that they didn't like it as much as the original run.

And I think that's because the reboot tackled more political issues and offered more societal commentary.

I mean, keep in mind the reboot premiered the year that Trump took office, the first time because they actually did, like, a special episode in 2016 encouraging people to vote.

So, they reunited for the first time in 2016 prior to the election, people were all excited, and then that led to this reboot.

And so, I think it makes sense that they were a little bit more political, because keep in mind, in 2017 gay marriage had just been legalized for two years, and now here comes Trump, who was a threat to LGBTQ+ rights, and still is, by the way.

But it's still interesting because the original run was criticized for not challenging stereotypes.

So, I feel like the show's creators took that feedback and tried to address that in the reboot, but then it seemed like people didn't like the tone of the reboot.

And then the reboot did conclude in April 2020 in the midst of the pandemic, so just another travesty of 2020.

Episode Closing (20:32)

But in spite of that, there is no denying that Will & Grace was a huge step forward for LGBTQ representation. It's definitely left its mark on pop culture.

It's paved the way for other queer shows since then, and I feel like it's something that a lot of people still reference. I mean, straight people enjoyed the show.

But also, I think for a lot of people coming of age that time, Will & Grace, at least for me, anyway, it was I I'd say it was an affirming thing for me.

You know, seeing Will and Vince and even Jack, who, while Jack leaned into the stereotypes a bit, growing up, anytime I heard gay, it was just like a negative perception of gay.

And it did very much lean to the stereotypes of not even just being, like, flamboyant or feminine, but, like, gay men are dirty. They just want to have sex. They're all dying of AIDS, like really negative stuff.

And then to see, you know, these friends, these lovers on the show, who were just regular people, like you would see with your neighbors, who, you know, were dating men, but had jobs and were good people.

And you know, well, to an extent, I mean, Grace and Will, they could be a little selfish sometimes. But overall, were good people and tried to do the right thing and were intelligent and all these things.

It was just, it was affirming to see that there were other options out there for me than what I had falsely been informed that gay was. And connecting it back to the tarot, Seven of Swords.

Again, this card tells us that there might be deception and lying going on in our lives and that despite this, there's a signal to be strategic. We can't do everything. We can't be everything.

So, we need to prioritize what's most important and what's most immediate, and then channel our inspired magic to take action and start moving forward.

And I think that's something we see a lot with Will & Grace. I mean, again, in hindsight, some of it has not aged well, and that's going to happen for any show 30 years later, I think.

And I know there's been some criticism around how it leaned into stereotypes, but I think overall, it was very positive for the LGBTQ+ community.

Just like the Seven of Swords says we can't do everything at once, one TV show cannot be everything to everyone.

And I think Will & Grace was very smart because while some of the gay romance in that was watered down, it still brought gay people to the mainstream and normalized them and made them digestible in a way that straight people could enjoy and relate to them.

Again, it's not, what you see on Will & Grace, it's not all-encompassing of any of our journeys, you know, navigating our identity or some of the hate or discrimination we may face, but it really helped put faces to identities.

And by that, I mean while people may not have known gay people in real life, they saw these characters and if they were straight people who maybe did not understand gay rights, maybe that created a little empathy for them.

And for those of us who were closeted or hadn't seen ourselves on TV, in some way it, you know, there were parts we could identify within those characters, and it created kind of a safe space for us to see ourselves.

And I think that was the most immediate step that the show took. You know, the first step is to get the representation out there, and as you do that, you can continue pushing the envelope.

I mean, we saw Queer as Folk come out shortly after Will & Grace, and as we talked about in that episode, that was a much more sexually charged show.

Granted, it was on Showtime, so it wasn't as mainstream to other people, but without Will & Grace, who knows? Maybe Queer as Folk wouldn't have been.

And it's something we build upon each generation. As we're going forward, whether we're consumers of media or, you know, writing books or filming movies or writing scripts, whatever, we can continue building upon the early representation and create more inclusive, more authentic characters.

I mean, odds are, let's be real, 30 years from now, people might look back at the characters coming out now and say, oh my god, that was so stereotypical. I can't believe they did that.

But we're constantly progressing. That's the thing, TV is like a time capsule.

So, it's not going to necessarily age with us, but it can help push the movement forward in the current moment we're in, so we can continue aspiring to greater equality, greater representation, and greater visibility.

So, there you have it, Will & Grace.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (24:20)

Anyway, thank you all for listening. As always, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. If you have any questions, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

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Mmm-bye.

Outtake (25:52)

I'm out of breath.