121. Unpack Your Gay Emotional Baggage (with Dr. Jason Durant)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Dr. Jason Durant

The human infant is born, like, compared to other mammals, with almost no ability to survive whatsoever.

We are utterly dependent upon attaching to those around us, to our community. So, it's not just a luxury of having love and being taken care of. It's absolutely wired in us for our survival.

Episode Introduction (0:41)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay because I got into a little bike accident.

So, as you may remember, a few weeks back now, I talked about how I sold my car because I'm not driving as much in the city, and that I opted to get a bicycle because it's just more economical for me.

It makes sense. It's better for the environment, plus I'm getting a great leg workout. So yeah, I've been enjoying that.

And mainly, I just bike to and from the gym every day, and it's about a mile each way, really easy bike ride. Love it.

But when I was leaving the gym, so they have a bike rack right by the front doors there, so you can just put your bike there, lock it up. You're good to go. Did my workout. Great, no problem.

I'm going to leave, and as I'm leaving, I unlock my bike, put my lock away, get all packed up, get my helmet on, ready to go.

I start walking my bike toward the end of the sidewalk so that way I can lower it onto the actual pavement and start biking away. I don't know what happened.

I think I tripped over my foot, but somehow, I lost balance of the bike, and the bike fell over onto the sidewalk, with me falling on top of it. And this happened in front of everyone.

Like the gym I go to, there are giant glass walls by the front door that just show right into the lobby.

So, I'm sure everybody saw literally just me, it was like, Mean Girls when Gretchen Wieners falls right on top of Karen Smith. That was me on top of my bike. And my leg was all banged up.

But, like, I tried to, like, pedal away as fast as I can, because I was so embarrassed. I didn't want anybody to see.

So, I'm pedaling away and I'm stopped at a red light. I look at my leg, and it's, like, bleeding. There's a few scrapes and a bruise. I took a picture of it to send to my friends to show them what happened.

But I mean, the silver lining was, in that picture, my leg was looking juicy. So silver lining. But yeah, if you're biking out there, be careful.

And maybe if you're somebody clumsy like me, don't jump right into bike riding right away. But what can you do?

Gay Men’s Mental Health (2:33)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, from physical tumbles to emotional tumbles. Today, I am excited to have a very special guest on to talk all about gay men's mental health.

And obviously, this is an overarching theme we talk about in every episode, whether it's topics about emotional unavailability, vulnerability, internalized homophobia.

I mean, it's pretty much in every episode. Just cue Jamie Lee Curtis saying trauma over and over again.

But today we actually have a prominent psychologist who identifies as a gay man himself, who really is able to empathize with his clients and understand the struggles gay men go through.

So, I'm very excited to bring him on. But before we do that, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (3:13)

Rob Loveless

So, we drew the Nine of Cups in reverse. As you remember, Cups is tied to the element of water. It's feminine energy, so it's encouraging us to meditate and reflect and look inward.

Cups is tied to our emotions, so you can think of our emotions flowing freely like water. In numerology, nine is telling us that we're close to reaching the end of a cycle or goal, but we're not quite there yet.

And while we should recognize and celebrate what we've achieved and what we're about to achieve, the Nine of Cups in reverse is telling us that we might be overindulging in life's pleasures.

Maybe we became too comfortable knowing that we are so close to achieving something, so we started to slack off. Remember nothing is guaranteed and nothing worth earning will be handed to us.

We need to put in the work. So, this card is letting us know that we need to take some time to reflect and get back on track to what we're looking to achieve.

And also, sometimes we think that once we achieve something, we'll feel good about ourselves, but once we get to that point, we realize that we still feel like we're missing something.

So, make sure you're in touch with yourself and your intuition, to make sure that you're working toward things that will bring you emotional fulfillment, and don't get distracted by the material things.

Guest Introduction (4:23)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I am very excited to introduce our next guest. He is a prominent gay psychologist and recent author of Boy from the North Country.

Please welcome Dr. Jason Durant. Hi, Jason. How are you today?

Dr. Jason Durant

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.

Rob Loveless

Of course, thanks for coming on. I think this is a really great topic that we're going to be talking about since almost every podcast episode has some tie into mental health.

So very important to discuss and your book, which we'll get into as well, is a great immersion into mental health within gay men, especially from a first-person point of view, and your own personal experiences.

So, I'm jumping ahead, we're going to get to all that. And so, to kick it off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you identify, your pronouns, your career, all that fun stuff?

Dr. Jason Durant

Well, really identify as a gay man and he/him are my pronouns. I'm a clinical psychologist in New York City, and I'm out as a clinical psychologist as well.

Most of my clients come for that reason. So, it's a big part of my personal identity, but also a big part of my professional identity as well.

Rob Loveless

And then I like to ask all my guests today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Dr. Jason Durant

Well, it's funny, I was texting with a friend just before we came on, and I said, I gotta go. I'm gonna record a podcast. And he said, what is it? And I said, A Jaded Gay. And he said, you’ll fit right in.

So, depends on who you ask. I don't know. I tend to be pretty optimistic, I think. I have my moments of frustration and cynicism.

I live in New York, after all, and it's sort of part of the brand, but mostly I stay pretty optimistic about the future and about believing in good things and that kind of stuff.

Rob Loveless

And I think now more than ever, we need that optimism. So, it's always nice to have a non-jaded gay on A Jaded Gay. So that being said, let's get right into the episode.

You talked about upfront a little bit your career. Can you share a bit about your background and what led you to become a psychologist?

Dr. Jason Durant

Well, you know, the book Boy from the North Country is really a memoir about my growing up in upstate New York, which is a very remote and rural.

It's interesting because it's actually less than an hour from Montreal, but culturally, it might as well be a continent away from any kind of urbanity.

It's a very rural farming community, and, you know, as a kid, I think I sort of had that role in my friend groups a lot.

Sort of, I had a lot of girl friends who would talk to me about their problems and even some of the adults.

But I think it was kind of just a natural thing that I always kind of knew in the back of my mind that people saw me in that way, maybe as an empathetic listener, or maybe even as having some insight, which I think maybe a lot of gay men relate to.

Just we are always on the outside looking in, so we kind of have an ability to see things that maybe when you're in the middle of it, you can't see.

You know, gay men are very good at seeing the forest for the trees. We know what's going on simply because we're often on the outside and we're watchers.

So, I think those two things kind of came together for me, and it seemed like a natural fit.

Rob Loveless

How has your own experience as a gay man influenced your approach to therapy?

Dr. Jason Durant

It's inseparable, really. You know, the book is really a detail of my healing experience, which, you know, I had some difficulties in childhood that maybe were unique to me.

But for the most part, I think it's about me as a gay person in an environment that wasn't supportive of my development and growth and finding my way to healing.

And so, as I work as a clinical psychologist, most of my clients are gay men and on the west side of Manhattan, and it's completely integrated into how I talk to people. I share a lot of my experiences.

If a patient is struggling to get something out, I might have, I might be right there with them. Maybe have had, like, almost a duplicate night in my life, you know, when they're trying to tell a story.

So, it's really inseparable from how I communicate with my patients, and I think that's a big reason why they come to me to begin with.

There's a lot of shorthand that they get to sort of, I don't want to say, cut corners, but get to the point of what's going on because they can see in my eyes that I've been there, and I understand what their experience is.

Not from an outsider's perspective, but from having been in it with them or in the trenches. So, it's a really big part of how I talk to my patients and how I think about what someone is bringing in.

Because really, if you're a gay man going to therapy, I think there are many well-adjusted gay men.

I don't mean to say that we all, it's naturally going to come with mental health issues, but you've have spent some time feeling like an outsider and had to come to terms with that.

I've yet to have someone come into my office that doesn't have that somewhere in their constellation of concerns, and the way that that permeates throughout a personality over a lifetime presents a lot of challenges.

And I spend a lot of time talking about that kind of stuff from my own experience, but also from that of the patients'.

Rob Loveless

I'm sure having your own experiences, it doesn't just help relate to what the patients are going through, but it also helps patients feel comfortable opening up, because in healthcare in general, it can be very difficult for gay men to feel safe having conversations with a professional who may not be trained in that particular field, as knowledgeable as things like sexual health and sexual protection within the gay community, or they may just be intolerant or completely disapproving of their identity, which can make it very difficult to find medical care.

And I'm sure the same thing extends to mental health care as well.

Dr. Jason Durant

In 2024, I still find myself shocked at what patients will tell me that their other healthcare providers are saying to them.

Not just a willful ignorance on gay men's health issues, but sometimes even overt, stereotype-driven medical practices, and people will come in not telling me stories where I'm going, you're not getting the care that you should get because your health care provider is not informed.

I have providers that I refer patients to when I really get a feeling that they're not getting the care that they should get. But I think it's a big part, again, of why people come to see me.

Even sexual practices in mainstream culture, the way that we, gay men, and sexuality is talked about, it's sort of in the pejorative, almost exclusively.

It's changing a little bit, but the number of negative attitudes that people have about gay men, our sexual practices, how much sex we're having, all of it is remains a major problem for people feeling like they could be honest about what they're doing and then be treated medically in an appropriate way.

So having a gay therapist who's informed, who knows, who's been there can be very useful for people to get comfortable talking about their bodies and what they like to do and how to take care of them.

So obviously, I'm not a medical doctor, but I have several that I refer my patients to when I feel like, you know, it sounds like your provider could do a lot better.

Let's see if we can find somebody who's a little bit more culturally informed.

Rob Loveless

That's amazing that you're able to kind of create that network of LGBTQ+ inclusive care beyond just the own services you offer, but those with other medical coverage.

Dr. Jason Durant

It's important. It's important.

You know, if you're ashamed or being shamed, let's say maybe more than just ashamed yourself, you're not going to communicate effectively with your provider, and then the provider, in turn, is not going to be able to provide you with the best care.

So, it's an important thing. It may seem like a body is a body, and while that may be true in an emergency room setting when you're having an ongoing relationship with a provider.

I think it's really essential that the provider is culturally informed.

Common Mental Health Struggles in Gay Men (12:46)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And looking specifically at the scope of mental health care, what are some common mental health issues or struggles you see among the gay men you treat?

Dr. Jason Durant

Off the top of mind, I think substance use is a big one. And I don't mean to sort of fire off stereotypes here, but you know, it's New York City, and alcohol is a major way that the sort of cultural flow is maintained in New York.

Want to get together? Let's have a drink. It's sort of built-in in the way that people communicate, and nightlife is a big way that gay men find each other.

Yes, there's the apps and that kind of thing, but in terms of community spaces, nightlife remains one of the biggest places for gay men to get together, and alcohol and drugs are a big part of that.

I think it has to do with the cultural factors associated with New York. But I think there's also, gay culture can be competitive and can be materialistic and can be challenging for a lot of people.

And I think substances act as a social lubricant and break down some of those barriers and make people feel more comfortable approaching each other.

So, the positive side of substance use, and I do come from an informed space of harm reduction, it's not a zero-substance policy.

I wouldn't be a very good therapist if you said that because people that need to come in from where they're at. But the positive side of substance use is precisely that. It brings community together.

It lubricates social events. It allows for people to get more comfortable. The dark side of that is that obviously, people become dependent upon it. So, I think it's a double-edged sword in our community.

I also see a lot of struggling to fit in. My, the age range of my patients, I have some NYU students who are 18, and I have retirees who are in their 70s, and the gay community has not warmed up to welcoming its seniors the way that it should.

And so, the older guys will come in talking about feeling invisible and find saying that there are no spaces for them, or if they go to a certain club night, they feel like they're being watched, like they're not supposed to be there.

And, you know, some of the younger guys feel sort of taken advantage of or not taken seriously.

You know, guys in their college years and 20s will often tell me that they feel as if the men who are sort of running the show in their 30s and 40s treat them like kids and or as sexual objects, as I talk about a lot of that kind of stuff, too.

Rob Loveless

Talking about some of those themes, substance abuse, not feeling like they fit in, do you think that there is a root cause of that from growing up gay or any kind of gay trauma encountered in childhood or adolescence?

Dr. Jason Durant

Sure. I mean, how do you not get a chip on your shoulder? You know, if you grow up feeling like an outsider and feeling unwelcomed.

You know so much of human relationships is tribal in the sense that you know the the infant, the human infant, I should say, is born, like, with compared to other mammals, with almost no ability to survive whatsoever.

We are utterly dependent upon attaching to those around us, to our community. So, it's not just a function of a luxury of having love and being taken care of. It's absolutely wired in us for our survival.

So, you know, when you grow up and even your family is not witnessing who you are in a supportive way, you're going to feel a sense of being an outsider. It's just going to be built in, even when they try hard.

Sometimes that works in the opposite way. People will come in and say, you know, my mom knew that I was gay, and I didn't want to tell her, because I felt so much pressure to conform to whatever her ideas about being gay.

There's just something about having that experience in a heteronormative environment that leaves a person somewhat feeling like an outsider looking in.

So, I, I think that when we look at gay men as adults, they're they're going to continue to have that in their personality somewhere. That doesn't mean again that gay men can't be well-adjusted.

They certainly can be. But I think that there is a piece of us that always is looking at the world as if we're not quite in the main.

Addressing Common Mental Health Struggles in Gay Men (17:33)

Rob Loveless

How do you address those types of issues, along with other challenges like internalized homophobia, coming out, or queer relationship challenges in therapy?

Dr. Jason Durant

That's a good question. You know, in a lot of ways, therapy is kind of like practice. It's a model. Someone once said that therapy is a real relationship without retaliation.

And I sort of like that idea that when people come into the office, they get to have a real relationship.

There's real emotion, there's real affection, there's real care, but there's an unconditional, positive regard that is built into the relationship.

I think, for gay men and in my practice, particularly now, there's the extra layer of being fully accepted as being a queer person, and seeing me as a queer person, and connecting on that.

And I think that the room itself, or the atmosphere, I should say, that's created between us, is part of the healing process.

That sense of I can say anything about my gay lifestyle in here, and it's going to be seen, valued, understood.

You know, there's a lot of laughter in my office, as much as crying, there's there's laughter in my space. And I, it's partly because people come into the office and are sort of talking about the lives that they live.

And, you know, there is something funny about being a gay man in New York City, and all that that entails, and the kind of a bit of a masquerade quality to public life in New York, and there's a joy in my patients and I share in talking about it and witnessing cultural phenomena as it comes through, and seeing, in the therapist space, it gives them an opportunity to react to what's happening in their lives, but also to keep an eye on it, almost like watching for blind spots and having their emotional reactions be able to be processed.

So, I think that's a big part of what's happening in the room, and how we're integrating those issues of coming out and being accepted and all those kinds of things.

Rob Loveless

Have you ever had clients who've been struggling to come out, and if so, how have you handled those situations?

Dr. Jason Durant

I still do actually, you know, it's complicated.

For instance, I'm thinking of a person who's a very successful business person who has a lot on the line and coming out at his level of visibility could be, could be a major liability.

Now we're breaking down those ideas societally, but on the micro level of an individual who has a family and who you know has thousands of employees and has a public face, the potential risk there is enormous.

And so, we talk about the political pressure he feels as a gay man, gay man, to come out, but balancing that with the personal life of a human being who you know has a family to protect and has a life that they've created for themselves.

There's a lot of shame, obviously, that comes along with living a closeted life, and we talk about that, but sometimes it's not so simple as you just you should come out and it's all going to get better because sometimes it might get a whole lot worse.

So, I've really come around. Maybe if you would talk to me 20 years ago, I might have said, just come out of the closet. It gets better, and all those kinds of things.

And while I still believe that that's mostly true, it's not true in every circumstance. So, I tend to start where the patient is at and work with them and the life that they've created for themselves.

And I do think by sort of de-shaming, which is a lot of what I do, they get closer to coming up, but I think there are some that just may never get there, or maybe when the kids are grown, or in retirement, or something like that.

Politics & Gay Men’s Mental Health (21:35)

Rob Loveless

You mentioned the political pressure placed on some gay men in certain situations, such as a corporation where they work at.

But also in the general sense, politics does play a role in our LGBTQ+ existence, and obviously, we are in the midst of a very contentious election.

So, I was curious, what impact does politics have on gay men's mental health?

Dr. Jason Durant

Well, I remember the day that Donald Trump was elected.

People were bringing me food, all, it was a when, it was, I think it was Wednesday, and people were bringing me food to the office because they were grieving.

And I think that there's, and we can get into, you know, Democrats versus Republicans and all that kind of stuff.

But I think that for gay men, we feel often that our futures or our livelihoods, or our ability to be functioning in society is tied to these political trends.

I mean, there are people more in one part than the other who would just as soon eliminate gay marriage, for example.

So, like our futures, or our ability to feel like successful, functioning members of society, often is tied to these political conversations. So, it's not an abstraction for most gay men.

And, you know, New York is a certain kind of place, right? So, the people who there, who are there, are particularly informed.

So, there may be a bias there, just in terms of geography, but I do feel it deeply that, you know, we worry.

We worry that the wrong people with the finger on the button, and I don't necessarily mean the nuclear button, I mean the button of what we're allowed to do, how we're allowed to express ourselves could change our lives in negative ways.

So, it's a pretty potent conversation in my office. A lot of therapists have a no-politics rule, but that would be impossible.

It's sort of easy for you to say it's a privileged position to say no politics when you're talking to gay men all day who are worried about whether or not their marriage is going to be protected, or the children that they have just adopted are going to be protected, or a trans person who's transitioning, or even just has a cousin in one of the southern states where they're passing laws banning gender affirmative care, that's real.

It's a real political consequence that impacts people's lives. So, it's it's a big part of our conversation in my office.

Rob Loveless

We're talking about gay men here, but obviously, politics affects overall LGBTQ+ umbrella for issues such as gay marriage, health care, things like that.

There's additional layers where politics can negatively impact other marginalized communities based off of their race, gender, or socioeconomic status.

So how do you approach therapy when a client's LGBTQ+ identity intersects one of these other identities as well?

Dr. Jason Durant

Again, you know therapy, there's a general way of talking about therapy, and then there's the individual experience of therapy, and I tend to start best I can with each individual and their particular circumstances.

We all have multiple identities, right? We all are somebody's brother or, you know, somebody's gay uncle or, um, we go home to a family who maybe are conservative Christians or, you know.

So, yes, there are these larger conversations about race and gender and those kinds of things, and they're important to stay informed about the larger discussion that's happening.

And obviously, right now, we're in a time where those discussions are happening at a pretty rapid clip, so I try my best to stay informed and to say culturally in tune, so that I'm not, you know, speaking from a dated perspective.

But at the end of the day, when a person comes in, we talk about, what's it like to be a person of color in the New York City gay bar scene, which is, you know, if you go up to Hell's Kitchen, most of those bars are predominantly white people.

And so, what is that experience like? Or what is it?

Some people will come in and say, you know, my four of my black friends went to bar x, I won't mention any names, I don't want to get anyone in trouble, and weren't led in, and we had an assumption that it was because we were Black, but there's no proof.

There's no documentation. But walking away with that feeling is a pretty traumatizing experience.

So, we talk about those things culturally, yes, but really on an individual level of what is your experience and how do we process the shame or trauma or those things that come along with it.

Community & Mental Health (26:23)

Rob Loveless

What role do you believe community plays in mental health for LGBTQ+ people?

Dr. Jason Durant

It's another one of those dialectics that we have to balance. On one hand, that's where we found each other.

If we go back to like the 1940s the, you know, the hotel bars, like, in San Francisco and New York, where the Navy guys would get up, that's where they found each other, right?

So being in community is a huge part of how we as gay men relate to each other. It's how we get to know each other. It's how we know what to wear, what not to wear.

I mean, there's so much about being in these public spaces that are essential to us forming community.

And I personally think that, again, just going back to kind of where I come from as a clinician, the tribal nature of the human experience of feeling a part of some kind of group that takes care of you is essential to good mental health.

So, on one hand, that visibility and being seen and connected and related to is essential. The shadow side, as maybe Carl Jung would describe it, is that we bring that shame into public spaces.

You know, thinking about The Velvet Rage here a little bit, there is that masquerade experience that is part of the gay world or gay culture, and if you're feeling outside of that, it can be very painful.

First of all, it can trigger experiences of our birth families, which is sort of like a re-traumatization, and it also comes with the extra sting of, I thought this was going to be a safe place for me emotionally.

And, you know, when no one's talking to you in a night club full of shirtless torsos, you go home with a certain kind of feeling about yourself, and that's the dark side that we don't, I don't think, publicly talk about that, particularly in New York, where body culture is such a big thing.

You know, if you go to an Equinox on like a weekday evening, it's full of gay men who are all you know, prepping themselves for being seen in the community, and bodies that don't fit in can feel marginalized and rejected, and that's the dark side, that community doesn't, in my opinion, do enough to make sure we're we're reaching out to different body types, people of color, people of different socioeconomic statuses, all that kind of stuff.

Disability status is another one that gay men, we're not as good as we should be in terms of making sure everybody in our community is taken care of.

Rob Loveless

It sounds like we might need to find our community within the community because what was previously communicated to us as what community was is not a one-size-fits-all.

Dr. Jason Durant

Yeah, that's a really great point.

And and I talked to a lot of guys who haven't been able to find that community within community and are looking at that larger macro community trying to, you know, go up to one of the bars in Hell's Kitchen and just find friends there.

And it doesn't always work that way, and people will feel lonely because they haven't been able to find again that tribal idea.

Haven't been able to find that group of people who are there for them, you know, their ride or dies.

Recent Advancements in LGBTQ+ Mental Health (29:53)

Rob Loveless

Can you share any recent advancements or findings in LGBTQ+ mental health that you find particularly relevant?

Dr. Jason Durant

Yeah, I, you know, I was just reading an article, again, I talk about substance use a lot, and I'm not trying to stereotype gay men, but it is a big thing.

And I was just reading an article about how ketamine is being found to essentially interrupt the creation of synaptic architecture around memories associated with alcohol.

So basically, the study, what they did was they gave them a beer, talked about these positive associations they had with drinking.

This was for for alcoholics now, and then, gave them an intravenous dose of ketamine.

And what they found is, after one treatment, these people, nine months later, were still drinking half of what they were before this treatment. And I thought, okay, so it's one study.

You know, one when they say one swallow doesn't make a summer. But it, to me, was very encouraging that we might be on the verge of understanding, how are these memories consolidated?

And is there a way to get in there and block that positive association so that the person, cravings are driven by that. They're driven not by how you feel when you're hungover.

They're driven by how you feel when it's like, wow, I'm confident and disinhibited and all that.

If you can block those positive associations with severe use disorder, disordered individuals, that, to me, was like immediately rang a bell in terms of what I'm dealing with on a daily basis with people struggling with alcohol.

Rob Loveless

That's really interesting. Now I've heard before, is ketamine sometimes used for different therapy approaches?

Dr. Jason Durant

Ketamine is used for depression.

And it's interesting, I have, on a couple of occasions, sent people to a ketamine clinic in New York City when they're demonstrating treatment-resistant characteristics, and some people have come back and said, you know, it cured my depression.

That doesn't mean it cures all your mental health issues, but some people have come back and said, wow, I actually feel better. Like I'm motivated to resume my life again and resume fixing my problems.

I know that there's good research that supports ketamine as a treatment for depression, and I do know they're also using it for some anxiety disorders, but I don't have as much familiar much familiarity with the topic.

Gay Men’s Success Stories in Therapy (32:24)

Rob Loveless

Well, throughout talking today, you shared some insights, some challenges, some of your clients have faced, some of the approaches you've taken.

Can you share a success story, and obviously maintaining confidentiality, where therapy had a significant positive impact on a gay client?

Dr. Jason Durant

You know the old saying is therapy is a treatment you don't understand for a condition you don't think you have.

So, it's all very subtle, and there aren't as many like gold moments, you know, with the bell ringing that I'm cured, but there are, regularly, people will come in and say, you know, I made that phone call I'd been putting off, or I repaired my relationship with my best friend or my partner and I are having sex again, or those kinds of things.

And it's not always directly traceable to a specific theme or conversation I've been having with a patient.

It's what seems to happen is that by addressing some of their blind spots, by processing some of the traumatic experiences, by learning how to trust, a big part of therapy is communicating to someone that you can trust, that I care about you and will be here and I will not retaliate against you.

Having those kind of experiences for some people are curative in the sense that they go out and they're into their lives and begin to have healthier relationships.

So that's really when I'll walk away going, I think I had a hand in that when someone will come in and talk about some of their relationships beginning to improve and seem more healthy.

Boy from the North Country (33:59)

Rob Loveless

We touched upon this this earlier on, but in addition to your day job, you've recently added author to your resume. So, can you tell us about your book Boy from the North Country?

Dr. Jason Durant

Yeah. Boy from the North Country, it sort of was like a pandemic baby.

You know my partner and I, we live part-time upstate, about two hours from New York City, and like everyone else, there was nowhere to go, and so I had a lot of time on my hands, and I was basically like, I'm either gonna, like, drink too much Sauvignon Blanc, or I'm gonna come up with a project that, like, keeps me focused and gives me something to do with all of these hours of free time.

So, I just took a couple of essays that I had written previously, and it sort of read through them.

And I thought there's a theme here. I'm telling my story from the lens of a psychologist, and I the book really came out of that idea.

It's really my story growing up in rural upstate New York on a farm and sort of meandering across the country.

There's a lot about the Grateful Dead in there and living in San Francisco and then moving back to New York after grad school and starting my practice.

But it's really the story of how one gay man finds a way to love himself and to let other men love him.

And I think, though the details of the story are obviously unique to me, I think there's kind of a template there that anybody really, not just gay men, can relate to, but particularly gay men who grew up in environments that weren't supportive of who they were at their core.

And it's one story about one person finding out that they're lovable and that they can love other people.

Rob Loveless

Reading through it, a lot of the book resonated with me. I'm sure it'll resonate with a lot of the gay readers out there.

But one line that really jumped out to me was on page 138, you write:

"Falling in love with a man who could never love you is never going to go smoothly."

And this is something I've experienced, especially when I first came out.

And it's interesting because I've been transcribing some older podcast episodes, and I recently transcribed one from January of 2023 called Are You Emotionally Unavailable?

And I forget who said it, but one of the articles that I cited in that, the author said something along the lines of falling in love with an emotionally unavailable man is one of the worst things you can do for your mental health.

And I think it's a trap that so many gay men seem to fall into at some point in their dating journey.

So why do you think that is, and what kind of impact can this have on a gay man's mental health?

Dr. Jason Durant

That's a big one. There could be a book about that one sentence there. I mean, I have experienced it multiple times. In fact, my earliest relationships were sort of a string of those experiences.

Almost every client that has come into my office and going on 15 years in private practice, has at least one or two stories about that experience. And I think there's two pieces to it.

I think as men, emotional unability, -availability is kind of trained into us a lot of the time. We're not supposed to be vulnerable. We're not supposed to be allowing ourselves to be impacted.

We can't appear too caring. So, there's that side of it, and then there's the side of us who maybe is a little desperate to be loved, but isn't quite ready, so finding someone who's doing that emotional unavailability thing sort of fits the bill.

It feels like love, because maybe we grew up feeling that love was always a little unrequited, and I think a lot of gay men relate to that just because of the nature of being in the closet and the shame and all of that, we find people.

And it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a little bit sad when you think about what's going on there, I think a lot of the time is we're actually afraid to really be loved, so we seek out these relationships with people who are not able to do it for one reason or another.

Maybe they're not in love with us, maybe they're heterosexual, maybe they're just not that into whatever it is, and then we find ourselves repeating all of that self-loathing and re-traumatizing ourselves.

And it's very impacting, because people will talk about being in those kind of situationships or even delusionships for years, and it affects their performance.

It affects their self-esteem; it affects their productivity. I mean, it's a it's a pretty serious and under-discussed topic. I'm not saying it's unique to the gay community.

I'm just saying it's very common in our community.

Rob Loveless

Obviously, that's pretty heavy, and like you said, there could be a whole book on that itself.

But specifically looking at Boy from the North Country, what do you hope that readers get from that?

Dr. Jason Durant

If there was like a top-line takeaway, this may seem a little heavy, but I mean it in the most optimistic way, it's that no one is coming for you, and holding on to that fantasy, I think, is part of why we find ourselves in these relationships that re-traumatize us.

We have to every one of us has to take ownership over whatever trauma was dished out to us because we are gay or for whatever other reasons might have been.

People experience trauma in all kinds of circumstances, but at the end of the day, the longer we wait for someone to fix it, or we fantasize about, come next Monday, I'm going to take it all seriously.

Nothing will change. The human is a pattern-driven creature, and we will just continue to repeat patterns until we say, Okay, this sucks. Whatever got handed to me was not kind, was not loving.

It may have been full-blown traumatizing, but it's mine, and my character is not in spite of that stuff.

It's because of it. It is the soil which our personalities emerge and finding a way to make a relationship with that, and it might be therapy.

Some people have spiritual experiences, finding a way to make peace with that, take ownership of it, and find a way to be proud of it. That's what I really want people to walk away from.

That you in all of us, there is a natural tendency, a libidinal drive to live and to be free, and you can't really tap into that as long as you're waiting for someone to fix your problems, or blaming other people or feeling like a victim, and you may have been victimized.

I don't mean to suggest that real victimization doesn't happen, but at the end of the day, it's still yours, and there's something really beautiful about making peace with who you really are that I think drives character development in a way that I think results in a healthier personality.

Rob Loveless

I love that answer, because with the podcast, my closing tie here is every day is all we have, so you've got to make your own happiness.

Because I think a lot of us fall into this trap that if we find love, if we find money, if we find success, then we'll be happy.

But I think sometimes we might fall into the trap where we think eventually those things will be, I don't want to say, handed to us, but they'll kind of just fall into place, whereas we need to take the steps and take the work to get there.

And at the end of the day, we might be all we have. So, we need to make sure that we're taking the steps to, you know, we want to be loved.

We can't just swipe on any app and go out with the first person that talks to us hoping they'll love us. We need to make sure we're taking care of ourselves to attract that right kind of love in.

Same thing with money and success, we need to take the steps, make sure that we're balancing what we're working towards and our own mental health to start building up to achieving those goals.

So, I love your answer, that we are all we have, like you said.

Dr. Jason Durant

It's an act of love. And I think you know, at the core of my practice, the book as well, money, career, love if you're not healthy.

And by that, I mean, if you don't really love yourself and see yourself as valuable, all of those things are eventually going to just fit into your pattern of whatever problematic choices.

That's just the nature of human being. When you see yourself as lovable and begin to treat yourself as lovable, and that could mean better managing your substance use habits.

That could mean better self-care. That could mean going to therapy or yoga or church if that's your thing.

But if you, until you begin to see yourself as lovable, I don't really see how you can relate to those, all those other things you're talking about, success, love, finance, in a healthy way.

I just don't see it because we're driven, in a lot of ways by the things that we don't see.

And if you don't start looking at those things, watching your blind spots, learning about them, integrating them, they're going to take over in all of your domains of life.

So, it's really about seeing yourself as valuable and lovable.

And when you do that, and you really take yourself seriously and see that the life you have is a really beautiful gift, until you do that, it's very hard to see how anything feels really authentic and feels really like a an expression of yourself as a loving being.

Episode Closing (43:45)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot, Nine of Cups in reverse, like Dr. Jason and I discussed, we as gay men need to put in the work to being the healthiest version of ourselves.

And this goes back to a concept we've talked about in The Velvet Rage. It's easy to be distracted by all the flashiness in the gay community.

You know, people with super successful careers or the hottest bodies or the most expensive clothes or the one who travels the world and goes to all these fabulous places.

Yeah, those might look nice on paper, and outwardly, they might signify a sign of success, but that doesn't necessarily mean that inside that person is emotionally fulfilled.

And as gay men who experience quite a bit of homophobia and heterosexism growing up, odds are we may view these outward signs of success as a means of obtaining validation from others.

But like the tarot tells us, sometimes we think that once we achieve that thing, we'll feel complete, but once we do, we still feel empty.

And I think that's a perfect example of how we can get distracted by materialism.

Just because we might look the hottest or have the best clothes or the best hair, or this or that, it doesn't make us happy and it doesn't make us feel complete. So, we really need to put in the work.

You know, tear back those layers, do the deep emotional work that may feel uncomfortable but ultimately will help us overcome any emotional wounds we experienced growing up gay.

And just like anything in life, we need to work toward what we want to achieve. If we want to be in a healthy relationship, that's not just going to fall into our lap.

We have to make sure we're being the healthiest version of ourself, so that way we can attract healthy people inward. If we want to succeed at a career, we can't just apply for a job and hope that we get it.

We have to impress in the interview, and once we get that job, we need to show up and really put in the work.

And just like our mental health, just because we might be aware, oh yeah, this thing is a trigger for me. That doesn't mean that it's going to just go away.

We can't just excuse any bad behavior we may display because we're saying it's coming from a place of trauma.

We need to put in the work to overcome those things, so that way, we're not just becoming a healthier version of ourselves, but we're also putting healthy energy out into the LGBTQ+ community.

Connect with Dr. Jason Durant (45:40)

Rob Loveless

Well, Jason, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been super informative and a really important conversation to have. So where can listeners learn more about you, your practice, your book?

Dr. Jason Durant

Well, first I'd like to say thank you for having me on here. What a pleasure it is to talk to you today.

You can order the book anywhere you get books, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, wherever you find your books online.

In terms of finding more about me, Facebook, Instagram @drjasondurant, and my website is drjasondurant.com.

Excerpt from Boy from the North Country (46:16)

Rob Loveless

And to close out the episode, can you read an excerpt from Boy from the North Country for us?

Dr. Jason Durant

Sure, I happen to have a copyright here.

So, you know, I'm going to sort of start at the beginning, because I think there's a section in the introduction that I think illustrates something important about what I want to say about with the book here.

And it's basically sort of a description of a session that I had, of course, adjusted to protect the privacy of the individuals involved:

"Last night, we had a fight. We started out great, and then he told me that he wanted to have a weekend with his friends. I freaked out. I listen. I think I know what is coming, but I say nothing.

I told him that he didn't love me. I told him that he wasn't treating me right. Actually, I screamed that at him. He's beginning to get emotional. His pain is bubbling to the surface.

I simply nod and try to hold a supportive expression. I want him to know that I am listening and that I care. I know that he wants to get away from me.

Why else would he want to spend a whole weekend with another person? When we are not together, I know that he's cheating on me and talking badly about me. It's going where I thought it might.

He's going to recount another night of relentlessly projecting his fear onto his boyfriend. He begins to cry. It turned into a huge fight, and I told him that we should break up if he wasn't going to love me.

I watch him cry as his fear that his possessiveness masquerading as love had gone too far. This unease is now rising to the surface. What if my fear, my clinging, my anger, has already driven him away? He asks.

Silence. He wonders aloud if his unhealed trauma has destroyed another bond as he pulled ever closer an attempt to merge with him, or at least get him to fix him.

He recalls a story of coming home from a bar when his boyfriend flirted with a bartender, another on a dance floor, and a third time with a stranger.

When he looks at other men, I don't, I see a desire in his eyes, but I do not see when he looks at me anymore. His face is lifeless. Tears stream down his face, his eyes remind me of an actual boy and not the man I have been working with for years.

More silence. I wonder if he's right. After all, this is at least the 10th time he has told me a story of an evening out with his long-term partner that has ended this way.

One time was when he looked into the phone of his boyfriend while he was in the bathroom. He found Grindr, the gay sex app.

In a rage, he demanded to know why his companion of several years would need a hookup app. Offended by the intrusion, his partner left him at a Brooklyn gay nightclub.

Another time, his boyfriend had come home late and smelled of an unfamiliar cologne. That night, things got physical and the police were called.

In another incident, a failed three-way resulted in overturned furniture, a drink in the face, and a week's separation. I wondered if he was right. Maybe this time, things had gone too far."

I read this because it's sort of a pretty good example of what we talk about in my office, the kinds of unhealed traumas and how they repeat themselves in relationships.

Now, in this particular case, you know, a lot of what the client was saying was projection. It's based on his fear.

I think that the book is really about trying to expose those blind spots and trying to get into a place of saying it's okay that you're having these emotions. Let's get them out here.

Let's look at them together, and let's figure out where they're coming from and see if we can come up with a different way.

Rob Loveless

Thank you for sharing that. And again, for the listeners out there, that was an excerpt from Boy from the North Country by Dr. Jason Durant.

So, after this episode, go out to your nearest bookstore, go online, buy it. You're gonna love it.

Dr. Jason Durant

Thank you.

Rob Loveless

Definitely take the time to learn more about Dr. Jason Durant and check out his book, Boy from the North Country.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (50:18)

Rob Loveless

And don't forget, the podcast award ceremony is going to be held Monday, September 30, at 8 pm Eastern Standard Time, and A Jaded Gay is up for the LGBTQ+ category, so make sure you tune in.

It's going to be streamed live on podcastawards.com. Wish me all the luck. Keep your fingers crossed, and let's see what happens.

And as always, you know the drill. If you have any questions or feedback for myself or Dr. Jason Durant, please feel free to reach out to me at rob@ajadedgay.com.

For more information on the episode, Dr. Jason Durant, links to merchandise, social, blog posts, all that fun stuff, you can visit the website ajadedgay.com.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. Greatly appreciate all the positive feedback.

You can also connect with a podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

Also, if you're feeling generous, you can support the podcast on Patreon for as little as $1 a month. That gets you instant access to episodes ad-free, a day early, plus exclusive monthly bonus content.

If you sign up at the $3 or $5 tier, you get a fun t-shirt. And at the $5 tier, you get a personalized shout-out from yours truly. What's not to love?

But if you're scared of commitment, don't worry. I get it. You can do a one-time donation on Buy Me a Coffee for any dollar amount, and both of those are @ajadedgaypod.

And remember: every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.